Maybe the wrong spot

[Taladome]

Not sure which thread I shoulda threw this in maybe under items or class balance dunno so threw it in General.

I realize the gms/devs are hard at work, and very busy. We all appreciate the work they do and try and be patient if things go bad hehe.

As you progress in tiers you begin to notice that items become widdled down to simply chain plate leather silk with no definable skill set that might help one specific class. In Kael/ToV you had class specific armor and skills to match those classes. Sleeper went from class specific to 2 different types of armor lol. Powerful at least had 4 as well as VP. Then in DSK you have a class specific item again which should help define your class. It is a pain I am sure to create/debug/test and get feedback on hundreds of items especially when you want to make everyone happy so here is what I propose...

Use the cookie cutter method to make your armors with general stats, ie plate chain leather silk. Those stats would increase of course as you got next item but no real big change needed. From there add an addition aug slot, a class specific aug slot where you can quest for/loot etc augs that help define your class set of armor. Example rogue aug would grant stats like cleave ferocity etc and add additional damage to backstab. Cleric would add mana pres focus/savings/enhancement and grant additional heal dmg.

If you still feel that is too much trouble could then add focuses even if not needed to cookie cutter armor, and the class augs exactly the same for each piece of armor. Example rogue aug basic hp ac stats + 20 backstab damage per aug. +20 does not seem like much but completing your full set of augs would grant you +160 bs damage. These augs could be increased or lowered as up in tiers and change armor augs.

I think something along this line would make things easier for devs creating new items, and help define a class with specific focuses/bonuses. I still feel the best well rounded armor on the server is ToV class specific armor.


Tal

[Nerva]

In essence, you'd be making armor modular via augmentations?

I like the idea, really. Currently, the majority of generic silk gear is focused and statted towards wizards and mages, with very few focuses geared towards necromancers (necros do not need frost damage focii or chromatic damage focii, but benefit greatly from poison focii and detrimental duration focii, which is rare on main cloth pieces). With this system, two clothies could wear the same robe, but the augs in it would be vastly different and provide focuses and effects that both would be happy with.

The only downside is that this would actually increase the number of items the devs would have to make, versus both previous methods. This is because the devs would have to make 4 sets of generic gear (cloth, leather, chain, plate), and then a set of augs for each class (fifteen classes, assuming I'm not forgetting any). They might pare down the number of augs by having certain augs contain stats and focuses useful to two or three classes (for instance, a fire damage focus is desirable for both necromancers and wizards, and a chromatic damage focus is valuable to every clothie except necromancers), but still, it's going to be a lot of work.

It would also be more work for players to farm. You not only have to farm up the generic gear, but you also have to farm up the augs to put in it before it's useful. From a player viewpoint, that's annoying. From a dev standpoint, particularly considering how it seems that they want to slow down guild progression to give them more time to work on future content before players reach it, this might be desirable.

Depending on the specifics of implementation, this could be an interesting system to use. Might be time-consuming to implement (or at least, implement well), but would be a fresh approach to gearing. Variety is the spice of life.

[Taladome]

Well the way I thought of it would actually be less time consuming for devs in the long run, your base items, and your augs would only need to be updated, not completely rewritten or first copy another item then change things, forget to remove this or add that etc.

On focuses this would be appealing to everyone, simply because your focuses are specific for your class, you dont have to run around farming this item or hoping for drop on this boss etc just to get a focus that might improve you. As it is now, every time you get an item you have to rethink alot of your focuses if you replace one. This uberitem #4 I just looted is great but ill be losing a focus if take off old item so gotta rework it back in or just reject uberitem #4.

One aug could be damage focus specific and not just class specific. Example, bracers for all armor class aug could be same really, some ac hp and then a damage focus, frost fire chromo etc. Lets say I get a fancy new aug for my sword, or a new clicky ice nuke or a wep with a wicked poison proc. To to take full advantage of those items you need focus and if you could readily swap out your focus while not having to downgrade or change your armor it would make life alot simpler. You can kinda do that with ldon items but those only go up to true focus, and your stuck with ldon gear in higher lvl tiers which is unacceptable.

btw..The additional work in farming/questing the augs would be for the bonuses which would be well worth the effort. What tier 8 rogue wouldnt do some aug quests to add another 1kdmg to thier backstabs, or what war wouldnt wanna complete thier augs for additional ac and mitigation etc. Each class would have its bonus stat that would increase as you got more of the augs for each piece of armor. I dont play a necro so dunno what kinda cool bonus a necro could get...10sec added on to dots sounds like crap but then full set 80sec? 80sec time added onto dot sounds mean lol.


I honestly just miss the uniqueness of having class specific armor and focuses and the bonuses could be something to really look forward to.


Tal

[Grey]

Like the idea of this thread just not sure how it would be implemented in a manner that wouldnt require some serious planning.
As for the creation of the augs / armors etc thats actually really simple and one well written sql query could do the trick but that line of discussion is not relevant to the topic.

[Nerva]

Well the way I thought of it would actually be less time consuming for devs in the long run, your base items, and your augs would only need to be updated, not completely rewritten or first copy another item then change things, forget to remove this or add that etc.

... (snipped in the interest of length) ...

I honestly just miss the uniqueness of having class specific armor and focuses and the bonuses could be something to really look forward to.

So, if I understand you rightly...

There'd eventually be a tier that provides generic plate/chain/leather/cloth gear. This gear would not be replaced for a few tiers; only the modular, class-specific focus augs in it?

Honestly, I don't see the advantage there over class-specific gear, from a dev standpoint. If they make class-specific gear, they have to code 15 sets of gear; one for each class, per tier. If they give you generic, modular gear, with class specific augs, they have to code one set of generic gear, followed by 15 sets of augs for that gear, with only new augs being added per tier.

What's the real difference between coding 15 sets of augs per tier, versus coding 15 sets of gear per tier?

From a player standpoint, it's definitely an improvement. You can, in theory, put your focuses on the items you want, and you don't really have to worry about losing a focus you really need. If you, say, have a Magic Damage focus aug in your head slot, you can just replace it with a better Magic Damage focus aug when you reach the next tier, without having to actually replace the gear you're slotting the aug into.

It would also make working around rings, earrings, necks, shoulders, and backs easier; if your jewelry/misc slots already have a certain focus, that would normally be provided by a class aug, you can just slap a different class aug in one of your primary slots. Or maybe the rings/earrings/misc slots would be subject to the modular system too, basically saying, "here's 17 slots, and augs for every focus your class can benefit from - go nuts." Would make a very, very flexible gearing system, from a player viewpoint.

Also, I apologize if I seem like a Devil's Advocate here; I'm just trying to make sure I understand your point correctly and that I understand the implications of your point.

[Taladome]

Ill be more specific hehe. Actually it wouldnt be 15 augs that would be updated per tier it would be 15 sets of augs + 4 sets of armor. Sounds like alot but once mapped out, updated, upgrading those items should be a breeze. Starting with kael ill do a few examples
based on plate chest armor. Two different versions

Armors as they are now
Vadd's Chestplate of Elite Combat
(This chestplate carries the stamp of Vadd)
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 110
Effect: Cleave II (Worn)
STR: +25 DEX: +15 STA: +25 AGI: +20 CHA: +15
HP: +300 Endurance: +205
SV FIRE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +30 SV POISON: +30
Shielding: +4%
Spell Shielding: +4%
Required level of 65
WT: 20 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 130
Skill Mod: 1h slashing +12%
Effect: Deafening Strike (Focus)
Effect: Guardian's Rune
STR: +30 DEX: +25 STA: +30 AGI: +25 CHA: +25
HP: +440 Endurance: +440
SV FIRE: +30 SV DISEASE: +35 SV MAGIC: +30 SV POISON: +30
Avoidance: +10
Attack: +50
Regeneration: +10
Endurance Regeneration: +10
Shielding: +6%
Combat Effects: +15
Required level of 70
WT: 15 Size: LARGE
Class: WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 125
Effect: Zombie Range (Focus)
Effect: Paragon of Spirit (Casting Time: 2 sec)
STR: +30 DEX: +25 STA: +30 WIS: +20 INT: +20 AGI: +25 CHA: +25
HP: +525 MANA: +525 Endurance: +525
SV FIRE: +35 SV DISEASE: +35 SV COLD: +35 SV MAGIC: +35 SV POISON: +35
Avoidance: +15
Attack: +35
Damage Shield: +3
Dot Shielding: +4%
Regeneration: +10
Mana Regeneration: +10
Endurance Regeneration: +10
Shielding: +5%
Spell Shielding: +6%
STRikethrough: +5%
Required level of 70
WT: 15 Size: LARGE
Class: BER SHM ROG BRD SHD RNG PAL CLR WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 142
Skill Mod: Defense +15%
Effect: True Preservation (Focus)
Effect: Powerful Heal (Casting Time: 0.5 sec)
STR: +25 DEX: +35 STA: +20 WIS: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +25 CHA: +20
HP: +625 MANA: +625 Endurance: +625
SV FIRE: +35 SV DISEASE: +25 SV COLD: +25 SV MAGIC: +25 SV POISON: +25
Avoidance: +20
Attack: +50
Damage Shield: +7
Regeneration: +10
Mana Regeneration: +4
Shielding: +3%
Combat Effects: +25
Accuracy: +25
Bard skill: Brass (+230%)
Required level of 70
WT: 15 Size: LARGE
Class: BRD SHD PAL CLR WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty
Slot 2, Type: 8 empty
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cookie cutter version 1

Cool plate tier 0
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 95
STR: +25 DEX: +15 STA: +25 AGI: +20 CHA: +15
HP: +300 Endurance: +205
SV FIRE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +30 SV POISON: +30
Shielding: +4%
Spell Shielding: +4%
Required level of 65
WT: 20 Size: LARGE
Class: BRD SHD PAL CLR WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty
Slot 2, Type: Class

Cool plate Tier 2
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 115
STR: +30 DEX: +25 STA: +30 AGI: +25 CHA: +25
HP: +440 Endurance: +440
SV FIRE: +30 SV DISEASE: +35 SV MAGIC: +30 SV POISON: +30
Avoidance: +10
Attack: +50
Shielding: +6%
Combat Effects: +15
Required level of 70
WT: 15 Size: LARGE
Class: BRD SHD PAL CLR WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty
Slot 2, Type: Class

Cool plate Tier 3
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 125
STR: +30 DEX: +25 STA: +30 WIS: +20 INT: +20 AGI: +25 CHA: +25
HP: +525 MANA: +525 Endurance: +525
SV FIRE: +35 SV DISEASE: +35 SV COLD: +35 SV MAGIC: +35 SV POISON: +35
Avoidance: +15
Attack: +35
Damage Shield: +3
Dot Shielding: +4%
Shielding: +5%
Spell Shielding: +6%
STRikethrough: +5%
Required level of 70
WT: 15 Size: LARGE
Class: BRD SHD PAL CLR WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty
Slot 2, Type: Class

Cool plate Tier 5
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 142
STR: +25 DEX: +35 STA: +20 WIS: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +25 CHA: +20
HP: +625 MANA: +625 Endurance: +625
SV FIRE: +35 SV DISEASE: +25 SV COLD: +25 SV MAGIC: +25 SV POISON: +25
Avoidance: +20
Attack: +50
Damage Shield: +7
Regeneration: +10
Shielding: +3%
Combat Effects: +25
Accuracy: +25
Required level of 70
WT: 15 Size: LARGE
Class: BRD SHD PAL CLR WAR
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type: 8 empty
Slot 2, Type: 8 empty
Slot 3, Type: Class

Class augs
Tier 0
War chest aug

AUGMENTATION MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 15
HP: +20 Endurance: +20
Effect: Cleave II (Worn)
Slashing damage +5
Required level of 70
WT: 0 Size: TINY
Class: war
Race: ALL
Augmentation type: class

Cleric chest aug
AUGMENTATION MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 5
HP: +20 Mana: +25
Effect: Health of giants(heal focus)
Healed damage +50
Required level of 70
WT: 0 Size: TINY
Class: cleric
Race: ALL
Augmentation type: class

Tier 2
War chest aug

AUGMENTATION MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 25
HP: +30 Endurance: +30
Effect: Deafening Strike (Focus)
Effect: Guardian's Rune
Effect: Cleave V (Worn)
Slashing damage +10
Required level of 70
WT: 0 Size: TINY
Class: war
Race: ALL
Augmentation type: class

Cleric chest aug
AUGMENTATION MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 10
HP: +25 Mana: +35
Effect: Word of Redemption (Casting Time: 0.8 sec)
Effect: Health of Drakes V(heal focus)
Healed damage +75
Required level of 70
WT: 0 Size: TINY
Class: cleric
Race: ALL
Augmentation type: class

These are only the war and cleric augs and again just random examples. Would have to be decided which focuses would be wanted more by each class.

The other example would be, to leave the current set of items alone, and simply add an additional aug slot for class augs that could add bonuses for said class and one or two that could add swappable focuses. Id say just add a slot two to everything so the changeable ldon augs could be used but...Too powerful with current setup/Focuses only go up to true/Many do not like to do ldons../Ldon augs do not really define a class/ If ldon augs were used would have to lower the ac hp mana on the augs or the items themselves.



Tal

[Shaitan]

Although this all sounds nice, it is very much like the system they have on other EMU servers. Item creation and scaling has to be one of the most challenging parts of running your own server and personally I believe that even though there are some gaps that the THF team is doing a great job. I certainly dont see any reason for them to start over from scratch. Implimenting these augs would require them to rescale every peice of custom armor they have made over the years.

[Firenze]

what you are offering here taladome is exactly how the ldon gear are designed.

Plat/leather/silk armor part + type 8 classic and then type 2 for the kind of focus you want to get.


I know you took some time to write up this suggestion but it already in game:)

[TheBloodmoon]

I don't think it's fair to discount this idea altogether just because we saw the same line through LDoN, or because it would be difficult to implement. It's not a "from the ground-up" idea only...

This is possibly an excellent idea to adapt gear in future content, allowing for more flexible gearing paths and additional time sinks, or possibly alternative armor sets for paralleling tiers if and when they are created.

If we think "this is too difficult to implement" then I'm surprised we have a server at all. From the looks of it, Lillu and crew aren't scared by "difficult" considering that they have developed one of the most complicated and advanced servers in EQEmu.

Of course, it's all opinion, but I'd bet that this could be an adaptable idea for itemization in future tiers, and possibly parallel tiers.

[ChaosSlayer]

as person who actually worked on set creation on THF, and still work on creating gear sets for my own projects, I must say that it is ridiculously tiresome trying to create 16 different gear sets, per EACH tier

Its not that just there is 4x times more clicking involved compared to creating 4 base sets, but that your brain really start to hurt when you trying to create different gear for classes who use practically identical stats and features: like the only practical difference between Paly and Sk armor is WIS vs INT, and DD vs DoT focus. Wizard and Mage sets 99% identical etc

I agree that best approach to this problem is to have 4 base armor type sets, but without major effects, and then offer effects in a form of AUGs, that players can add to their gear by choice.

So War and Cleric would have identical base armor, but war will add a Cleave augment to it, while Cleric will add Improved healing, etc

This is significantly less work for a designer, and a lot more freedom for players to pick their gear options

For Nerva: you missing a point here: its not 15 gear sets vs 15 aug sets.
its 16*12 total items vs 4*12 items + maybe 30 augs
Which brings us to 192 vs 78