Tier 8 spells and discs

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Thenrin
Posts: 142

Re: T8 - Cleric, Ranger, Shaman, Warrior

Post#11 » Tue May 31, 2011 3:10 am

On test server, I tried out some of the new stuff.
These are first impressions, likes and dislikes; didn't have time to really dig into these, but I hope this will help you out a little. Everything said is intended in the most constructive manner possible; you guys do wonderful work, and I would not want anyone to think I meant otherwise. I left focuses from character equipment out of this, as different characters will have different gear, and therefore different focuses. I didn't want to have an additional variable involved. All spell information listed is the base spell information.
You will have no doubt noticed a little color:
Discipline
Equipment
Self only spell
Single target spell
Group spell

Cleric:
Blessing of Chaos - This heal seems like it needs work; database shows 5000 to 5700 for 1000 mana, whereas Ancient: Hallowed Light shows 4980 to 5680, at 775 mana; True Renewal is 5700 to 6400 for 850 mana. I would never use this spell as written.

Faithful Light 1, 2, 3 - Unfortunately the problem above only gets worse here. While cast time, recast time, and range all stay the same for all these spells, Faithful Light 1 is a fully double the mana cost of Ancient: Hallowed Light at 1450, providing a marginal increase of 5400 to 6100; still less than True Renewal unless you get the 1 in 12 (8%, to be precise) chance of an additional 1200, for a total of 6600 to 7300. With Faithful Light 3, we still fall well short of True Renewal, being only 50 mana less than double (1650 vs 850x2 = 1700) with a base heal of 5600 to 6300, vs 5700 to 6400. Even with the 1 in 5 (20%) 1600 bonus, True Renewalx2 blows it away when the total becomes 7200 to 7900, vs 11400 to 12800. Without the 1 in 5, True Renewal does 100 more hp at half the cost. These spells stay unused in my book.

Chaotic Conviction is now self only? (I'm guessing thats an oops - I did confirm by attempting to cast on my warrior after insuring the warrior was targeted; my cleric got the buff, warrior did not - currently Chaotic Conviction is single target on the main server.)

Glorious Faith and Hand of Chaotic Conviction - nice to see these intermediate spells. I would assume these would drop in the lower raid tiers? Or perhaps they already do, and I simply haven't seen (or heard) of them?

Endowed Temperance 1, 2, 3 - Minor but direct upgrades to Hand of Glory, these would have a spell gem, no question. I do have to wonder at the very minor upgrades theses spells provide though, with Hand of Glory at 3450 hp / 110 ac, and Endowed Temperance 3 being the best at 3850 hp / 119 ac, with 2 spells between. thats only 400 hp / 9 ac difference. Seems very minor when you look at the differences between previous spells in this line.
My response would be to not worry about the difference, and be unconcerned about getting this upgrade unless it fell in my lap. If I got it, use it, of course.

Faithful Blessing 1, 2, 3 - Upgrades to Chaotic Elixir, that are not shared with the other healer classes. Very nice bonus heal on the last tic of the spell. Definitely wants to be used.

Blessing of Hope 1 - I'm guessing this is intended to be a group spell, as mana cost is more in line with the other group spells of this line. I did confirm that it currently is a single target spell. Otherwise as below.

Blessing of Hope 2, 3 - Improvements to the True Devotion spell. Definitely worth using. Curiously, all spells of this group, including True Devotion, have a spell description indicating single target use. I did confirm both of these spells function as group spells. I believe all of these spell descriptions, to include True Devotion, should be changed to match the level 69 spell Aura of Devotion.

Blessing of Zealot 1, 2, 3 - Self only spell haste focus. The focus is low, at only 7% for the highest rank, but it does effect Complete Heal. It does not stack with other spells of the Blessing of Devotion line, being overwritten by this level 67 spell. The fact that it does effect Complete Heal is nice, but the truth is, I personally dont use that spell any more, because I get more out of my other heals, due to focuses. I think some would use this, and some would not, depending on play style. Worth having in the list, just not for me.

Ranger:
Protector's Furry 1, 2, 3 - This discipline is melee only? Bleh! I don't know of a single ranger on THF that uses melee by choice (I'm sure there is, but every one I know of uses the bow whenever possible). Looks like the direct upgrade to Warders Wrath - Improving True Shot would seem to be more in line with the usage rangers see on this server. Maybe continuing the dual nature of ranger disciplines by keeping this discipline and adding matching upgrades to True Shot? (Perhaps it could be called Perfect Aim?)

Firestorm of Ro 1, 2, 3 - Interesting nukes, direct upgrades to the nuke line, with a neat dot effect. I like them. Even so, I seriously doubt I would ever memorize these - simple fact is, you can do more damage using your bow in the half second cast time. Some may use it, I don't know.

Hawk's Talon 1, 2, 3 - Direct upgrade to Eagle's Eye, and not a small one, either; I love this, definitely would be in my spell list!

Onyx Skin, Skin of the Forest 1, 2 - Direct upgrades to the Oaken Skin line, but as the cleric Aegolism line of spells overwrites these, I'm sure these would see little use.

Skin of the Forest 3 - Spell description indicates single target spell, in function it is a group spell; gem color matches group, mana cost does as well. When cast with no target, the group all received this buff. Otherwise, it's the same as versions 1 and 2.

Strength of the Wildrunner 1, 2, 3 - Upgrades to the Predator line. Very nice spells, though I would much prefer to see these in group form. With the exception of Howl of Chaos, all Predator line spells after 37 are group spells; the level 17 and 37 spells are self only. This entire line of spells is very useful to all classes that attack a mob with physical damage; it's one of the things a ranger brings to a group. Making these group spells (with the attendant doubling of mana cost) would make these a very important spell to have.

Sylvan Spring 1, 2, 3 - Upgrades to Sylvan Water, with a nice bonus heal on the next tic. Good upgrade to ranger heals; these would be kept ready. The mana costs on these spells are all very reasonable, increasing in a very consistent manner matched to consistent improvements in power, appropriate to the class.

Shaman:
Ancestral Focus 1, 2 - Single target upgrades to the Chaotic Focus spell. Good, though its unfortunate that one must wait till the last rank of this line to have a group version. I would probably use these on the main tank, and use True Focus for the rest; mana cost would get extreme if one were to cast this on each character individually, not to mention the time involved.

Ancestral Focus 3 - This is the focus every shaman wants, hands down. Group version of Ancestral Focus 2, simply the best there is.

Spiritual Touch 1, 2, 3 - Every thing that is wrong with the cleric heals, seems to have followed over to this spell line, though not quite as bad...simply put, these spells are not efficient at all; the mana cost on these spells is prohibitive, and the heal improvements are marginal at best. If one were to get the bonus heal that comes with this spell, then it becomes a viable alternative, as the bonus is significantly better than the cleric version; but with the best chance at 1 in 5 spells, I would do better to use True Regeneration twice and be done. This line is better than the cleric version, though not by a lot. I seriously doubt I would use these.

Reflective Foresight 1, 2 - Single target avoidance buff, upgrade to Spirit of Sense. Looking at the mana cost, I must assume that these are intended to be group spells. Talisman of Sense is a group spell, at a mana cost of 525. Spirit of Sense, the single target version, is only 150, yet the first rank of this spell costs 750. Considering the improvement of this spell is from 7% to 8%, the cost of 5 times the amount seems excessive. Also, when cast on another target, you receive the "target is out of range" message - even when Call of the Hero is used to put the caster literally on top of the target. Looking into the database, I find that these spells have no range, only AE range of 60, same as Talisman of Sense.
As group spells, the costs become quite reasonable, and these would be good.

Reflective Foresight 3 - Purely the group version of Reflective Foresight 2, I think this would be needing something else if the above spells were made as group spells; either improve from 9% to 10%, or some other minor benefit. Otherwise, it's good.

Spirit of the Lion 1, 2 - Direct upgrade to Spirit of the Panther. These spells provide a significant upgrade, with a reasonable mana increase. Very nice; once scribed, Spirit of the Panther will never see the outside of the spellbook again.

Spirit of the Lion 3 - Group spell, with an even stronger proc effect. As above. Talisman of the Panther from Frozen Ritualchanter's Leggings is now obsolete.

Spiritual Sacrifice 1, 2, 3 - Nice, consistent upgrades to the Cannibalize spells. A class defining ability. They seem to function as intended when cast, with no problems. I personally dont use these often, but many do, and these spells will serve them well.

Turgur's Deadly Poison - This is simply the best slow spell ever seen, with an excellent duration, and a powerful effect. Unfortunately, it is still easy for most mobs resist. Even with Malos, the best MR debuff in the shaman spellbook, most creatures one is concerned about slowing will be more than able to ignore this spell. One simply cannot depend on having an Enchanter available to cast any Tashan type spell, and without it, you have nothing. Any creature that can be slowed this way will die so fast it won't matter. Wonderful spell, I just wish it could land on a mob that needed slowing. The only other issue with this spell lies in the description; spell description shows 12min 30sec duration, but the database shows 7min duration.

Warrior:
Defender's Guard 1, 2, 3 - Further upgrades to Defensive State. They have an initial Endurance cost, that seems like a minor cost when the 4% mitigation improvement is factored in. Higher ranks provide both longer duration and reduced reuse timers. Extremely good, definitely to be used.

Defender's Vengeance 1, 2, 3 - Increases aggro and makes one attack with significantly higher damage, and usable with other disciplines. Also usable at some range. Very nice.

Hurricane Swipe 1, 2, 3 - Upgrade to Cyclone Blade, this is going to be important in getting aggro on mobs that are not your current target. The range seems to be improved, though that may be my imagination; and the effect is incredible. It appears to be a full round of half damage attacks on each mob, vs 1 minimal attack. The difference is amazing. I like this. A lot.

Enraged Scowl 1, 2, 3 - Simply increases aggro, but usable with other disciplines. It does have a 20% chance to give a minor buff that provides 5% melee avoidance, but it uses the main buff window, and does not stack with Talisman of Sense or spells of that line. Still, I would use it, consistently, I am sure.

Vengeful Champion 1, 2, 3 - massive increase to damage, database shows 150%, but it seemed like closer to double; I could be wrong, though you might want to look at it. Not to be used by the main tank, but while in DPS mode, this will be very good.

Zephyr of Strength 1, 2, 3 - Endurance regen, seems to work as intended. I usually don't need this, but good to have, and others might need it a lot. Only downside is it does use the discipline bar, so it cannot be used with many disciplines.




I think there is more work to be done, especially regarding heal spells. I do have a druid, but I never play him. I did play one on live, but that was long ago, and on this server things are quite different, and as a result, I do not have a solid reference on this server.
We need a druid to look at the druid heal spells carefully, as I would not be surprised if those need work as well. Lots of things are looking really good though, and I look forward to seeing these spells and abilities in final form. Thanks for your effort, and I'm sorry about the wall of text, but it there was a lot to go over :)
Vincere - Zekk - Arko - Lathandar - Dovre

Sicarius - Vulcanus - Urza - Mishra - Taliesin - Zonn - Thenrin

Siegreich Valor
Guild Leader

Vaion
Posts: 3712

Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#12 » Tue May 31, 2011 5:20 pm

Awesome, I'll look into everything mentioned. Thanks for the great feedback =)


Keep the feedback coming guys! <3
Oh the fun you all are going to have in DSK3...
Simon says.. touch the green one! Nooooo BLIQUE NOT THE RED ONE! zomg you just got me "Vaion Touched"!

Vaion
Posts: 3712

Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#13 » Tue May 31, 2011 11:53 pm

@ Thenrin:

Cleric:
- Blessing of Chaos is not a T8 spell.
- Faithful Light: First question, are you trying the spells in game and getting those values or looking at the Alla Clone? The Alla Clone values do not match 100% with the in game (non-focused values). For Instance, RK. III of Faithful Light actually heals for 6930 unfocused in game not 6300 as stated on Alla Clone. Were the mana costs a little high, yes. They have been lowered to 925/987/1012 accordingly.
- Glorious Faith and Hand of Chaotic Conviction are neither T8 spells
- Endowed Temperance: After looking at the Druid buffs+symbol HP additions. Endowed Temperance was increased to 5300/5450/5600 HP
- Blessing of Hope Rk. I now set to group as well.
- Blessing of Zealot: Suppose to be as described. Self only complete heal cast time focus.

Ranger:
- Protector's Fury affects bow damage as well as melee. Also, it was moved to it's own timer now, separate from trueshot.
- Skin of the Forest was changed to Power of the Forest; new Strength of the Hunter line type spell.
- Strength of the Wildrunner Rk II and III have been changed to group form. Rk I will remain single target.

Shaman:
- Ancestral Focus: Rk II now group cast, and Rk III got a slight boost to make it better than Rk II
- Spiritual Touch: Again, make sure you are checking the ingame values and not Alla Clone. Rk III heals for 5170 unfocused where true regeneration heals for 4620 unfocused. The mana costs were lowered tho accordingly. The new mana cost values are 925/978/1008
-Reflective Foresight: Rk II now group cast, Rk III got slight boost to 10%

Keep the feedback coming :)
Oh the fun you all are going to have in DSK3...
Simon says.. touch the green one! Nooooo BLIQUE NOT THE RED ONE! zomg you just got me "Vaion Touched"!

Lola
Posts: 491

Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#14 » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:00 pm

Hi Vaion & thanks for your work on new upgrades.

Sadly I cannot test due to being away for work purposes (in CZ).

I checked a bit the allaclone to see the resists check (from -50 for cold/fire to -20 for magic).
No increase in resist check when getting from RkI to Rk3 for all.

I cannot test manacost vs dps but one thing I am sure is that I would not waste 2000 mana in a -20 resist check spell.

Hope some wizards will be able to test and give feedback.

BR Loly

Vaion
Posts: 3712

Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#15 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:28 am

Resists on wizard instant nukes were lowered a little. magic is -80/-90/-100 ice is -60/-70/-80 fire is -90/-100/-110. Thanks Lola, didnt catch that.
Oh the fun you all are going to have in DSK3...
Simon says.. touch the green one! Nooooo BLIQUE NOT THE RED ONE! zomg you just got me "Vaion Touched"!

Firenze
Posts: 886

Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#16 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:06 pm

I have been doing some more testing , and I have nothing ot add to the recent posts.


I wanted to do some parses on my monk , but it seems that critical hits are broke on test server atm , so I can't really give accurate melee feedbacks
Firenze of VallonZek <Europea>

Gwynraven

User avatar
Lillu
Posts: 11301
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Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#17 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:54 pm

Crit hits are disabled on test server, we are trying to eliminate some memory leaks. Nice catch tho! ;)

Firenze
Posts: 886

Re: Tier 8 spells and discs

Post#18 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:57 pm

;)
Firenze of VallonZek <Europea>

Gwynraven

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