Grey, I use photobucket.
Tal, you're welcome. =)
2hnder Balance
Re: 2hnder Balance
I just dont know how or where 240 attempts went on the pally, if your identically buffed same dly weapon should be hitting at the same rate. 240 attempts is alot of damage your missin on your pally lol. Im gonna try and farm observer staff for monk since its the only one with 2hbash skill I could find, and a diff 2hs for war seems a few of those to choose from and see how much the accuracy goes up with those mods.
Tal
Tal
Re: 2hnder Balance
Ok next parse, looted an aged frozen zweihander from vp that has 19% mod to 2hs.
Taladome
Statistic Total Slash Hit
Damage 1202033 906613 295420
DPS by type 1973.8 1488.7 485.1
Normal damage 1202033 906613 295420
Total Flurries 31
Flurries per minute 3.1
Total attempts 1191 855 336
Missed 143 143 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 88% 83.3% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 88% 83.3% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 75.4% 24.6%
% dmg as normal 100% 100% 100%
Total hits 1048 712 336
Normal hits 1048 712 336
% hits by type 100% 67.9% 32.1%
% hits as normal 100% 100% 100%
Average hit 1146 1273 879
Average normal hit 1146 1273 879
Max normal hit 2491 2186 2491
Min normal hit 59 59 682
1 attempt per sec 7 11 123
2 attempts per sec 28 99 84
3 attempts per sec 74 147 15
4 attempts per sec 99 24 0
5 attempts per sec 65 17 0
6 attempts per sec 20 4 0
7 attempts per sec 7 0 0
8 attempts per sec 2 0 0
In this parse, you can see that my accuracy did in fact go up from 66.6% to 83%. Your two hander has a 22% mod which takes it up to 88%. Id like to see the accuracy for 2h weps around 90 to 95% to really see them viable for raw damage output. There are many weapons in game be it 2hs 2hb 2hp(is 2hp even a skill?) that are missing mods to help with their accuracy and those that do have mods are too low to bring raw dps up to where it should be.
In comparison we see the difference for a dual wielder.
crush slash
Total attempts 2683 1543 1140
Missed 249 79 170
% Accuracy 90% 94.9% 85.1%
Here I am using hoh final evolves,the sword with 19% to 1hs, the club % to 1hb (not shown or not labeled but my skill does go up to 326 with it equipped). We can see that the club is at 95% accuracy and the sword 85%. If, I were to only use one of those weapons, the way a 2hs were used my total attempts would be 1140 slash or 1543 crush and my dps would suffer the way anyone with a shield and sword or 2hs does, but that is not the case. My actual total attempts 2683 during a 10 minute parse with 249 misses is very respectable and raw dps of those two weapons added together makes those 249 misses almost invisible.
Conclusion, from what I have seen through the many parses I have went through recently. Weapon procs count for around 25% of a characters dps. Some more, some less but on average 25%. 2h weapons are suffering at the moment and imo mostly due to lack of mods on some of those weapons, or mods not being high enough to effect the raw dps of the 2h weapon. I see procs as an additional bonus to weapon damage and to not be relied upon for a classes dps(unless your a shield basher but thats another topic) and 25% is a respectable number. If two hand weapons were re-evaluated and adjusted with higher skill mods and lower dly's you would see much greater raw dps coming out of 2h weapons before reaching a 255 cap.
Example:
If the devs decided that a 2h weapon user should be around 3000dps for a sune buffed tier 5 char(example ok) zerker... sk....pally.. whatever take that 3000dps and subtract 25% for built in or aug procs, which would give you 2250 raw dps required from the weapon. Subtract another 5% from that for each aug slot on the weapon to account for the additional dmg added from augs(this is hard to figure but most 2h augs dmg pretty close)which gives you 2025. Adjust the skill mod/dly of the weapon to get as close to that number as possible and youll have your 3000dps + or - depending on the augs they are able to get. The same could go for any tier 2h weapon. Accuracy and attempts are 2hs biggest killer, Accuracy boils down to skill mods, attempts boil down to dly. If we can get those adjusted there will be alot of very happy 2h weapon users out there. I personally do not use 2h weapons, but hopefully this is able to help out those that do.
Tal
Taladome
Statistic Total Slash Hit
Damage 1202033 906613 295420
DPS by type 1973.8 1488.7 485.1
Normal damage 1202033 906613 295420
Total Flurries 31
Flurries per minute 3.1
Total attempts 1191 855 336
Missed 143 143 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 88% 83.3% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 88% 83.3% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 75.4% 24.6%
% dmg as normal 100% 100% 100%
Total hits 1048 712 336
Normal hits 1048 712 336
% hits by type 100% 67.9% 32.1%
% hits as normal 100% 100% 100%
Average hit 1146 1273 879
Average normal hit 1146 1273 879
Max normal hit 2491 2186 2491
Min normal hit 59 59 682
1 attempt per sec 7 11 123
2 attempts per sec 28 99 84
3 attempts per sec 74 147 15
4 attempts per sec 99 24 0
5 attempts per sec 65 17 0
6 attempts per sec 20 4 0
7 attempts per sec 7 0 0
8 attempts per sec 2 0 0
In this parse, you can see that my accuracy did in fact go up from 66.6% to 83%. Your two hander has a 22% mod which takes it up to 88%. Id like to see the accuracy for 2h weps around 90 to 95% to really see them viable for raw damage output. There are many weapons in game be it 2hs 2hb 2hp(is 2hp even a skill?) that are missing mods to help with their accuracy and those that do have mods are too low to bring raw dps up to where it should be.
In comparison we see the difference for a dual wielder.
crush slash
Total attempts 2683 1543 1140
Missed 249 79 170
% Accuracy 90% 94.9% 85.1%
Here I am using hoh final evolves,the sword with 19% to 1hs, the club % to 1hb (not shown or not labeled but my skill does go up to 326 with it equipped). We can see that the club is at 95% accuracy and the sword 85%. If, I were to only use one of those weapons, the way a 2hs were used my total attempts would be 1140 slash or 1543 crush and my dps would suffer the way anyone with a shield and sword or 2hs does, but that is not the case. My actual total attempts 2683 during a 10 minute parse with 249 misses is very respectable and raw dps of those two weapons added together makes those 249 misses almost invisible.
Conclusion, from what I have seen through the many parses I have went through recently. Weapon procs count for around 25% of a characters dps. Some more, some less but on average 25%. 2h weapons are suffering at the moment and imo mostly due to lack of mods on some of those weapons, or mods not being high enough to effect the raw dps of the 2h weapon. I see procs as an additional bonus to weapon damage and to not be relied upon for a classes dps(unless your a shield basher but thats another topic) and 25% is a respectable number. If two hand weapons were re-evaluated and adjusted with higher skill mods and lower dly's you would see much greater raw dps coming out of 2h weapons before reaching a 255 cap.
Example:
If the devs decided that a 2h weapon user should be around 3000dps for a sune buffed tier 5 char(example ok) zerker... sk....pally.. whatever take that 3000dps and subtract 25% for built in or aug procs, which would give you 2250 raw dps required from the weapon. Subtract another 5% from that for each aug slot on the weapon to account for the additional dmg added from augs(this is hard to figure but most 2h augs dmg pretty close)which gives you 2025. Adjust the skill mod/dly of the weapon to get as close to that number as possible and youll have your 3000dps + or - depending on the augs they are able to get. The same could go for any tier 2h weapon. Accuracy and attempts are 2hs biggest killer, Accuracy boils down to skill mods, attempts boil down to dly. If we can get those adjusted there will be alot of very happy 2h weapon users out there. I personally do not use 2h weapons, but hopefully this is able to help out those that do.
Tal
Re: 2hnder Balance
Firenze wrote:if Jekudo pull less dps even with 2handers AA is because Paladin/SK get a lower base ATK stat then warrior.
I wish my SK could use only a 2handers , I'always thought a Knight should be using 2handers
knight only 2 handers like knight only 1 handers? /wink hey a man can dream can't he?
Re: 2hnder Balance
The problem with using accuracy as a balancing tool is that it's also a reward mechanism, and it's finite. You can't go past 100% (95% without removing the hardcoded 95% maximum). which means if you continue to increase accuracy on non-2h weapons with each upgrade, you will eventually be back where you started.
A number of these finite mechanisms are already capped at high end on THF (e.g. dual wield, double attack for classes that don't get triple, haste). By my calculations, chance to hit should be about 92% with new donor mods and capped accuracy, and not counting spells/discs. Doesn't leave much room for future upgrades.
IMO it's more sensible to increase base weapon damage output via damage/delay/procs for the purposes of balancing, and these factors are not limited (discounting the restriction on base weapon damage, which requires a little work but not a fundamental redesign).
A number of these finite mechanisms are already capped at high end on THF (e.g. dual wield, double attack for classes that don't get triple, haste). By my calculations, chance to hit should be about 92% with new donor mods and capped accuracy, and not counting spells/discs. Doesn't leave much room for future upgrades.
IMO it's more sensible to increase base weapon damage output via damage/delay/procs for the purposes of balancing, and these factors are not limited (discounting the restriction on base weapon damage, which requires a little work but not a fundamental redesign).
Re: 2hnder Balance
Im not sure I follow you. As you can see with grey's parse with his tier 7 boss 2h weapon hes only hitting 87 88% accuracy. My unmodded 2h weapon parse shows 66% accuracy which is from tier 5. Can you explain how skill mods are used as a reward vs how they are used to increase raw dps on a 2h weapon. Without accuracy 2h weapons raw dps is undesirable which is the point of this thread. The server is already at the 255 damage cap with alot of 2h weapon users dps coming from procs(which you can see from posters asking for lure procs etc on other augs). Would you want a 255/40 weapon with 66% accuracy or a 190/40 weapon with 95% accuracy.
For two handed weapons, rewards from procs sure, reward with lower delay of course, but reward from accuracy doesn't make alot of sense because without that accuracy all 2h weapons suffer severely compared to classes that can duel wield. You have to compare or it will never make sense to you, from tier 1 to tier 8 accuracy is not a problem for a dual wielding class in terms of affecting their dps. For 2h weapons its the opposite. With all things being equal, lets say that every 2h weapon from tier 1 to tier 8 has 92+ accuracy. At 40 dly your capable of achieving your target dps for each tier without worrying about the 255 damage cap. You now have three rewards to work with, delay, damage, and procs. Damage we know is capped at 255, and the delay cap I am uncertain but think is 15 which I doubt they will be lowering 2h to anything below 20. Delay of course is going to be your biggest reward because your getting more attempts/hits. If accuracy is seen as a reward and your only able to achieve 88% at tier 7, you have a ton of lower tiers with raw dps suffering regardless of the damage dly of the weapon.
You can take a look at ala clone and check it out, alot of your 2h weapons are missing skill mods(some come from items like nice/nicer face aug) and some are very low making a 2h weapon an undesirable choice for tiers lower than those where you can get 88% or higher accuracy. Am I saying that 2h weapon dps should be = to duel wield? No, with each play style there should be an advantage and disadvantage, 2h weapons were used to avoid riposites, take less damage, and suffered a small amount of dps reduction. Sword and shield users took a hit in dps because that shield reduced the damage one took a great amount. I have yet to see or do parses to confirm that either of those are the case for emu servers.
On live 2h weapons suffered from damage reduction for weapons with dly lower than 30, I do not know if that is in effect here or not someone would have to confirm that. "If" they do then our dly is already capped as well. So what I get from what your saying is, that we are pretty much already capped out for 2h weapons and the reward to work with is making the weapon hit or miss with accuracy + adding huge lure procs too keep things balanced. What about the tiers that are far from the 255 cap, do not have access to huge lure procs, and are missing skill mods to make the weapons they loot accurate. You can count the lure proc augs for 2h weapons on one hand. Froggernaut slot 4 and camped pretty regularly + need it to drop the aug you want. Final arbiter you can kill for a long time to try and get that aug to drop. DSK...... If you use these procs to obtain a classes target dps rather than a bonus to thier dps aren't you asking a bit much from them to achieve their target dps where other classes are fine with their easily obtainable augs?
Yes, as I stated in an older post, 2h weapons will probably end up receiving higher and higher procs too keep them balanced and thats easy I guess, tier 1 500dmg lure to tier 8 2k lure etc, but I still feel we are far from requiring them for balance and those tiers suffering from 2h dps trouble I think would be alot easier to rectify by adding skill mods and increasing accuracy instead of re writing/rethinking the whole 2h dps system for the entire server.
Tal
For two handed weapons, rewards from procs sure, reward with lower delay of course, but reward from accuracy doesn't make alot of sense because without that accuracy all 2h weapons suffer severely compared to classes that can duel wield. You have to compare or it will never make sense to you, from tier 1 to tier 8 accuracy is not a problem for a dual wielding class in terms of affecting their dps. For 2h weapons its the opposite. With all things being equal, lets say that every 2h weapon from tier 1 to tier 8 has 92+ accuracy. At 40 dly your capable of achieving your target dps for each tier without worrying about the 255 damage cap. You now have three rewards to work with, delay, damage, and procs. Damage we know is capped at 255, and the delay cap I am uncertain but think is 15 which I doubt they will be lowering 2h to anything below 20. Delay of course is going to be your biggest reward because your getting more attempts/hits. If accuracy is seen as a reward and your only able to achieve 88% at tier 7, you have a ton of lower tiers with raw dps suffering regardless of the damage dly of the weapon.
You can take a look at ala clone and check it out, alot of your 2h weapons are missing skill mods(some come from items like nice/nicer face aug) and some are very low making a 2h weapon an undesirable choice for tiers lower than those where you can get 88% or higher accuracy. Am I saying that 2h weapon dps should be = to duel wield? No, with each play style there should be an advantage and disadvantage, 2h weapons were used to avoid riposites, take less damage, and suffered a small amount of dps reduction. Sword and shield users took a hit in dps because that shield reduced the damage one took a great amount. I have yet to see or do parses to confirm that either of those are the case for emu servers.
On live 2h weapons suffered from damage reduction for weapons with dly lower than 30, I do not know if that is in effect here or not someone would have to confirm that. "If" they do then our dly is already capped as well. So what I get from what your saying is, that we are pretty much already capped out for 2h weapons and the reward to work with is making the weapon hit or miss with accuracy + adding huge lure procs too keep things balanced. What about the tiers that are far from the 255 cap, do not have access to huge lure procs, and are missing skill mods to make the weapons they loot accurate. You can count the lure proc augs for 2h weapons on one hand. Froggernaut slot 4 and camped pretty regularly + need it to drop the aug you want. Final arbiter you can kill for a long time to try and get that aug to drop. DSK...... If you use these procs to obtain a classes target dps rather than a bonus to thier dps aren't you asking a bit much from them to achieve their target dps where other classes are fine with their easily obtainable augs?
Yes, as I stated in an older post, 2h weapons will probably end up receiving higher and higher procs too keep them balanced and thats easy I guess, tier 1 500dmg lure to tier 8 2k lure etc, but I still feel we are far from requiring them for balance and those tiers suffering from 2h dps trouble I think would be alot easier to rectify by adding skill mods and increasing accuracy instead of re writing/rethinking the whole 2h dps system for the entire server.
Tal
Re: 2hnder Balance
Good detailed posts tal, I agree with your point of view so far.
Can't check clone on this phone but doesn't emp ssra 2h aug have a proc too?
I know one of my guys has that aug on the 2h as well as the arbitor
Can't check clone on this phone but doesn't emp ssra 2h aug have a proc too?
I know one of my guys has that aug on the 2h as well as the arbitor
Re: 2hnder Balance
First up, 255 limit on weapon damage does not exist in the current Emu revision, I have no knowledge of dev plans here but I assume they would include this when updating code.
If you're simply saying that 2H skill mods should match 1H skill mods at each tier, then I agree. Keep in mind that the type of weapon has no impact on accuracy (if you have no skill mods or +accuracy, hit rate against a same level mob should be whatever base hit rate the server admins have set, which is 67% by default)
What I was getting at is that there are various 'levers' which can be pulled to increase DPS, some can be increased without practical limits, others have a limit to which you can increase them due to the way the game works.
Some of the levers..
No practical limit: These can be increased, theoretically forever.
- Base weapon damage (damage of a swing) (requires code update to exceed 255)
- Proc damage (damage of a proc)
Practical limit:
Chance to hit (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)
Chance to dual wield (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)
Chance to double attack (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)**
Chance to proc (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)
My view is that when attempting to balance elements of the game, it's not good to use the levers that have a practical limit, as you are simply delaying the problem (those practical limits will be reached).
Grey's parses show 88% accuracy. This means accuracy can only be increased by 7% with future expansion, so IMO it should be the last thing you increase for reasons other than bigger better items. If I was pulling the levers I'd be more inclined to reduce the 1HS skill mods instead of boosting 2H
(and counter the 'nerf' with an unlimited lever)
** triple attack fires from double attack skill, but not all classes get it.
If you're simply saying that 2H skill mods should match 1H skill mods at each tier, then I agree. Keep in mind that the type of weapon has no impact on accuracy (if you have no skill mods or +accuracy, hit rate against a same level mob should be whatever base hit rate the server admins have set, which is 67% by default)
What I was getting at is that there are various 'levers' which can be pulled to increase DPS, some can be increased without practical limits, others have a limit to which you can increase them due to the way the game works.
Some of the levers..
No practical limit: These can be increased, theoretically forever.
- Base weapon damage (damage of a swing) (requires code update to exceed 255)
- Proc damage (damage of a proc)
Practical limit:
Chance to hit (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)
Chance to dual wield (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)
Chance to double attack (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)**
Chance to proc (no benefit if you go higher than 100%)
My view is that when attempting to balance elements of the game, it's not good to use the levers that have a practical limit, as you are simply delaying the problem (those practical limits will be reached).
Grey's parses show 88% accuracy. This means accuracy can only be increased by 7% with future expansion, so IMO it should be the last thing you increase for reasons other than bigger better items. If I was pulling the levers I'd be more inclined to reduce the 1HS skill mods instead of boosting 2H
(and counter the 'nerf' with an unlimited lever)
** triple attack fires from double attack skill, but not all classes get it.
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ChaosSlayer
- Posts: 1693
Re: 2hnder Balance
what you guys really need to do to measure accuracy, is to make level 1 warrior, put 5 skill points into 2hs (so its equal with with 1hs) pick 2 newbie weapons from the vendor and parse with those. 
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