2hnder Balance

[Grey]

Its more a matter of balance over how hard it would be to change x number of items.
I actually really like the idea of no mod on weapons except special cases and mods on the tier armor.
As you upgrade in tier of armor you get that bump in weapon mod.
Then your special case weapons could have that better mod as the dev team see's fit.

Don't follow the post about how a duel wielding class suffers just like someone with 2h.
Ie my monk gets more possible attacks a round then my pal so a 30 % miss rate on a paladin with 2h is much much bigger then for a monk.

Honostly I don't care so much about the dps on the weapon as I care about the rate of hit and miss.
Weapon could hit for 10 or 10000, don't care which, just care that it hits.

I no longer use 2h

[Taladome]

Mien--Your parse makes sense then if Zerkers are base 305 vs lower caps of other chars.

mathematically speaking, a weapon with 50% accuracy will come equal in terms of dps with a weapon of 100% accuracy, given its has 2x the damage output per hit, and as number of swing attempts approaches infinity

So yeah, you can have a 2h with lower hit chance given it has much greater dmg output ratio to compensate, and your fights are long enough.

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Oh yeah, on the subject of +skill mods.
This is maybe too late to redo all the items now, but for the FUTURE, i would recommend to place +skill mobs on ARMOR, rather than on weapons.
So if your bracer will have +10% to 2hs, it will apply to ANY 2hs you try to use, not just a specific one, so when you looking to upgrade, you won't be concerned with possibility of a mod not being on the next weapon.
Its same approach as having your HASTE bonus on armor item, rather than on weapon itself

I agree completely, but I kinda like the skill mods on augs so that armor can be upgraded without fear of losing a skill mod. Thats the only problem I see with putting mods on armor is that mods placed on various different pieces some are more difficult to obtain such as skill mod on gloves from t6 require you to kill CT. Then a great upgrade drops from first boss in T7. Dark gauntlets of stone, but your gonna lose your 19% skill mod if you use them. Bracers might be a good choice for weapon skill mods, not too difficult to obtain and normally without mods anyway but if it were restricted to bracers would need multiple mods on one. Chain users require everything from piercing to archery thats alot of skills to try and fit in.

Edit-is there some secret way, or could a way be added to search with items with skill mods, going through every item to check for skill mods is very time consuming and tiresome.


Tal

[jsre]

Don't follow the post about how a duel wielding class suffers just like someone with 2h.
Ie my monk gets more possible attacks a round then my pal so a 30 % miss rate on a paladin with 2h is much much bigger then for a monk.

Honostly I don't care so much about the dps on the weapon as I care about the rate of hit and miss.
Weapon could hit for 10 or 10000, don't care which, just care that it hits.

With respect, if this is your understanding of maths I'll leave it here.

[Taladome]

Don't follow the post about how a duel wielding class suffers just like someone with 2h.
Ie my monk gets more possible attacks a round then my pal so a 30 % miss rate on a paladin with 2h is much much bigger then for a monk.

Honostly I don't care so much about the dps on the weapon as I care about the rate of hit and miss.
Weapon could hit for 10 or 10000, don't care which, just care that it hits.

With respect, if this is your understanding of maths I'll leave it here.

I think what grey is saying is regardless of a 2h weapon being twice the damage of a 1h its delay is still slower and only one weapon. 1h weapon lower delay and duel wielded so whatever damage you end up with raw or proc > a single 2h. You just gotta parse and see for yourself. Numbers sound great but parse and youll see. Equal tiered duel wielder with or without skill mods out dps 2h with or without skill mods in raw damage and even more in proc damage. So his point is same as mine, very important that a 2h weapon actually hit and when It does hopefully not for min damage.

Tal

[jsre]

I don't think he's saying that at all

Honostly I don't care so much about the dps on the weapon as I care about the rate of hit and miss.

Weapon could hit for 10 or 10000, don't care which, just care that it hits.

I mean come on.. I am happy to discuss the logic and it was an interesting topic, but I'm not interested in pointless discussion.

[jsre]

By the way not sure what you want me to parse.. probably easiest if you give me the dam/delay of the weapons you want to compare. Or names if you want me to parse a specific weapon. I'll use a level 70 dummy and 70 war with full aa's.

[Taladome]

Simple, grab a couple around 70/20 augged weapons. Now aug you around the same tier 2h weapon. Make sure both weapons recieve same skill mod if 2hs is 19% then 1hs needs 19%. Parse them both, look at the raw damage and tell me who did more dps. If skill exact skill mod unavailable dont use any, parse look at raw damage tell me who did more dps.

Tal

[jsre]

I thought you already established 2H weapon DPS is not balanced at each tier And we know the effect +skill mod has from parses in this thread.

The only useful thing I can think to parse is what ratio 2H you need to match up with 70/20 1H'ers.

[jsre]

Ok, here are 3 fights. All 3 are using a 70 war with full AA's and max combat skills, naked except for weapons. Weapons have no stats other than damage delay. Target is a level 70 dummy, so hit rate unmodified by level.

Haste is the same for all 3 fights.

Fight 1: 2H Slash, 140 damage, 20 delay.
Fight 2: 1H Slash, 2 x 70 damage, 20 delay, max dual wield skill (is around 78% chance)
Fight 3: 1H Slash, 2 x 70 damage, 20 delay, 100% dual wield chance (think THF caps dual wield around T3-T5, depending on buffs)


Fight 1: (2H Slash 140/20)
Testwar -vs- Diaku Guardian:
-- DMG: 383354
-- DPS: 1004
-- Scaled: 1004
-- Slash: 383354
-- Attempts: 1068
-- Hits: 672
-- Missed: 232
-- Defended: 164
-- Accuracy: 74.3%
-- Avg Hit: 570

Fight 2: (2 x 1H Slash 70/20, no dual wield mods)
Testwar -vs- Diaku Guardian:
-- DMG: 333280
-- DPS: 823
-- Scaled: 823
-- Slash: 333280
-- Attempts: 1764
-- Hits: 1117
-- Missed: 409
-- Defended: 238
-- Accuracy: 73.2%
-- Avg Hit: 298

Fight 3: (2 x 1H Slash 70/20, dual wield 100%)
Testwar -vs- Diaku Guardian:
-- DMG: 366030
-- DPS: 845
-- Scaled: 845
-- Slash: 366030
-- Attempts: 1980
-- Hits: 1252
-- Missed: 481
-- Defended: 247
-- Accuracy: 72.2%
-- Avg Hit: 292


Conclusion:
With even ratios on 2H and 1H weapons, 2H wins. Not a surprise - you'd expect 2H to have higher damage as every riposte will do 2H damage and you will get more out of flurries as they use primary hand weapon (AA that is not disc).

So if 2H DPS isn't on par with dual wield DPS with all other factors equal, ratios aren't comparable. If this is intentional, then so be it, and the following can be disregarded.

If it's not intentional...
- make 1H and 2H skill mods comparable at each tier
- make ratios comparable

Exactly how this is done is a design decision. i.e. increasing chance to hit via skill mods is one option, but reducing chance to hit via skill mods is another. While we as players can provide analysis, I don't believe we're best placed to make design decisions.


edit: fixed lots of typos and clarified some wording.

[Taladome]

Are these parses done with a character on THF? If so, char name please and weapons names please. We do parses on on the dummies setup in guild hall or in the forest.

Edit err those are obviously parses done on your own setup server or another emu etc, Such parses are not accepted in the forums. We use weapons we get in game on dummies created by the devs with gamparse. Anything else is unacceptable as who can actually verify said parse? If someone questioned mine I log in and let them parse my char using same gear I did in other parses.



Tal