The Hidden Forest

I really don't like the way the tanks are currently balanced. I have two major issues.

1. Warrior aggro seems like it's the best on the server / knights don't have huge snap aggro

2. Knights get the same defensive disc that warriors do.

On live, what seperated warriors from knights as the premier tanks was the fact that our defensive discipine was always better than the knights, and that we had a slight AC boost on our class specific armor. On THF, we don't have that, all tanks are created equal in terms of defensive disc.

Knights always had the ability to build huge immediate aggro with spells, they could out aggro a warrior easy at the beginning of a fight, and only through a duration fight could a warrior take it back with his procs / dps.

Paladins get heals, buffs, DA, root.
SK's get lifetaps, FD, DA, DD spells
Warrior's get... dps?

The knights get abilities to help them tank, self heals, procs that help them with healing, self heals etc. I don't have a problem with that as long as warriors have a specific area that seperates them from knights as the top tanks.

I also feel like they should have a big taunt spell ( something like 20-30 sec refresh ) to give them immediate snap aggro, and also an AE taunt spells ( again, 20-30 sec refresh ) to give them immediate snap aggro on multiple mob pulls.

With that being said, I feel like the clicky on their kael gloves ( currently stonewall, which is a 45% mitigation spell ) should be changed to 35% mitigation.

I'd like other experienced / veteran / high end players to contribute their input, I'm not asking for a nerf to knights, I feel like they have always had better aggro generation than us, and currently do not, and that needs to be addressed. But warriors have always been the top tanks for big mobs, and other than aggro, there is nothing seperating us from knights currently, and honestly, if I knew this coming to the server, I would've rolled a paladin instead, I don't see why more people don't play them with all of the advantages.

With the ToV pants, it seems Paladin aggro is very solid. I have no problems throwing good DPS at the beginning of a fight towards Kilmer. However, for whatever reason, I can pull aggro off Sarcon with auto-attack only and he uses the same pair of pants (SK version).

*Edit* Just checked and they are not the same effects.

As far as you other points, I can not contribute simply because I worry more about aggro generation. As a healer I don't typically notice who tanks better as long as I can get a heal off before you die. I will say, however, that I know I would much rather have a warrior tanking a raid mob than a knight.

It's not really fair to say that Warriors and Knights are on even playing ground with discs. First of all, our stonewall disc has a 1 hour cool down (so does defensive, more on this in a moment). Knights do not have access to defensive disc until you are lucky enough to snag a ring from one of the ST warders (again, 1 hour cool down).

Our aggro generation capability is not that outstanding, and we do have less hps than a same-geared warrior. Our defensive reaction is poorer overall. Not only do our full melee dps suck compared to warrior, but its rare in a raiding situation that a knight isn't casting something constantly.

I was unaware that stonewall clicky on gloves was an hour reuse, as the alla clone doesnt have the cool down timers. With that being said, yea, you definitely aren't on the same scale as warriors.

What about getting a huge aggro spell and AE spell with low cast time, 30 sec recast ? Staff, opinions?

I wondered why there weren't more knights on the server, now I realize why. The fact that they need to wait an hour for a refresh on stonewall gloves doesn't seem right. I don't like that they get the warrior defensive disc, but I also don't think a knight should have to wait an hour for a refresh on their only defensive disc.

What about implementing a custom disc, 30% mitigation, with no movement restricting detriments, 3 minute duration, 15 minute cooldown, and then removing the stonewall click from the gloves?

That's not a bad idea at all Harney. I think a shorter CD def with a slightly lower mit would be a great route to go personally.

About aggro, well it's not that simple atm. I honestly think Tyler needs to try putting like +25K hate on one of the spells just to see if that even holds aggro. If that doesn't work, then go with the multiple stuns to one spell idea.

Personally, I think it's the stuns that keep aggro for us. Some rounds I proc up to 6 stuns if I flurry, I always proc at least 1-2. There is also hate on top of those stuns/damage, but don't think for a minute that it isn't needed. On Fennin last night I lost aggro to Falcore a time or two on mobs (was only trash luckily).

I hope Tyler mixes up the two and gives a huge +hate amount AND multiple stun components in the same spell. It doesn't matter how much knights spam those stun pants, if I proc 3-4 times a second and they can only do it 1-2 times then whose gonna win? ><

Harney wrote:
What about getting a huge aggro spell and AE spell with low cast time, 30 sec recast ? Staff, opinions?

that so called "huge agro spell" is as good as about roughly 500 dmg of agro ( or about 2k worth of heals), the 500ish HoT on muglies 2.0 often peels mobs that eat the Aoe taunt off me), also its not hard for mobs to resist the AoE taunt so yeah mugly tanks alot if i try to tank multi mobs. sure knights have our heals/FD ect... but then again its a tradeoff for our incredibly low dps compared to warriors.

and as for discs, i only have stonewall, on a 1hr reuse, its not untill tier 3 can you get defensive and then again warriors can also snag that ring to do a def disc back to back. and keep in mind with stonewall disc being on gloves theres always a chance of finding (X) loot that shares reuse timer and crying (i know my CoTH orb and CH neck share reuse timers)

main thing is at least in live SK were your agro managers ( they could build agro fast and dump it if needed via FD), paladins were your utility, buffs, heals and OTage (agro built via stuns), here paladins cover a similar role while SK are more OT,debuffers who can heal themselves a little bit with lifetaps ( still paly heals > lifetaps ).

I'm going to assume you didn't read my last post as your reply touched on a bunch of points I addressed.

Couple of points:

1h cool down is meant as the following message : Raid Tanks are Warriors. If all goes downhill, a Knight can step us as emergency raid tank and to help finish of that mob. Same goes for Exp groups. If no warrior is available and you want to beat that fat big boss npc, a knight can tank it. Once. Then 1h regular exp again.

I just added Stonewall to the war gloves, too (actually thought i did that when i gave Knights access to that Disc, my mistake).

About Agreo generation - i will make sure that Knights are king of Agro. Obviously Warriors also need their fair share of being agro magnets since everyone else does so much Damage otherwise the game simply won't work. Howver they should be able to peel any mob off of anyone at will (more or less, maybe not the raid boss ).

The Agro from the Donator weapons seems to be rock solid, Please give me some feedback if you lose agro with that Harney. If not, i will use that as a base template for a new Knight buff that they will get as lev 70 spell.

Tyler wrote:Couple of points:


I just added Stonewall to the war gloves, too (actually thought i did that when i gave Knights access to that Disc, my mistake).

I see two possible outcomes:

A: They do not share a CD with the ST defensive clicky, I can likely 1 group Sleeper now with 4 back to back defensives, and I can EASILY 1 tank ANY raid mob under 10million HP.

B: They share a CD with the ST def clicky, and this belittles the achievement of actually farming that ring. Gaining access to ST and killing the mobs is not an easy feat, so I don't think that's the best thing to do. A Kael item should never even come close to an ST item except for in the case of the knight glove clicky.

Hm good point. Guess have to remove it again.