[observation] class issues and suggestions
Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:56 pm
This is longish, and contains a lot of my observations.
To begin with, I will basically let you know which classes I have played on live and here.
Beastlord - lvl 70, 76aa - live/here
The good
- I have to say the increase to the pet is since. On live the procs don't scale with level and capped at 75dmg a proc when I played. The only reason for the variety was in stat buffs, resistances and the effects (some were de-taunts, other stunned). So it is nice seeing the pets proc actually benefit dps rather than becoming more and more of a liability.
- The increase in dmg is nice. The pets here hit harder than on live and I like that, I also like that pet can crit right away. Pets, while not a staple like with mages - are incredibly important to Beasts.
The bad
- Lack of bst/monk weapons in general. t0 has epic and at best the fabled j-stick which can work as a t1 weapon in a pinch.
- augs aren't impacting the pets much. I know you've said in the past that bst pets get the least benefit of the augs since they are about where you'd like them and because bst has access to awesome melee weapons. That said I have to point out that Bsts are a duel weild class, like bards. At best beastlords are a very poor imitation of a monk with no aa when fully specced. At no point to bst come close in melee output to a mnk with similar aa unless the monk is afk.
- Monks have a scaling dot that is better than the bsts
- Monk have roots and a slow (various discs)
- Monk have a pacifiy
- MOnk have FD
- And finally monks can Flying kick, doubles and as reposite. At 55 with t0 gear, my monk hits for close to 500dmg each kick. My monk is now 68 but is in leveling mode and I have payed much attention.
Beastlords on the other hand have,
- slow (65) with low resists
- stat debuff
- dots (rarely use)
- really good pet heals that need a boost all around)
- Pet procs
- pet haste
- Bstcrack (useless with items around like smr with clickly kei)
- pet
- instant nukes
At best, beast are a monk imitation of both shm and mnk, being a slightly better imitation of shm than mnk. The problem is that a lot of content is slow immune leave bst to play as dps, a role for which they are currently lacking because of design, and augs not making up for the inheriant lack of dps in the class itself.
As a general rule the pet should be 1/2 to 1/3 of the bst dps, this has always been a problem as the pets do not scale with bst weapons. The instant spells are like flying kicks, but they take much longer to cycle, and monks can end up doing far, far more dmg with flying kicks than the bst can.
The simplest solution would be to adjust the augs, or create weapons, like the epic 1.5, that buff the pets additionally. Now bst shouldn't me in the same area as monks, but they shouldn't be outright behind a monk either.
Additionally, when fighting raid content, pet whiffs too much. Even with augs pet is blue at 70 and isn't hitting as often as I feel it should when doing AD and other raid type bosses.
- Block/AC/Avoidance: This class and monks are absouluty useless in tanking anything but trash, and even then require heavy healing. On live the block skill was far, far superior to parry (I believe over 25 percent more effective) and bst/mnk avoidance was such that monks and bst avoided most incoming dmg, especially after around 1100ac had been reach. This let monks and bsts MT in a pinch or OT when needed. It also meant, when hit, because of low mit, they took heavy dmg if not outright dropped. Usually the monk or bst would tank for 1-2 mins, get hit, pop a def disc, get healed, tank, then drop giving their team time to rez the MT or have the ot move into place. This is a problem I will address again later.
Final Grade A
Class needs more dps benefit from pets and a more reliable dps pet for raids. Avoidance needs to be checked, class has almost no tanking ability, and mob immunities render bst slows useless on a lot of encounters making the hybrid useless.
Monk 68 no aa live/here
The good
- Monks play pretty much on live, all the discs seem to work and they are very fun and versatile.
The bad
- Huge lack of weapons. Outside of t0 where monks get their epic w/ OH and the ability to grab a falbled j-stick, the variety of weapons is too small.
- in t1 (guk,mist/kc) the only upgrade to the fabled-j stick is the chaotic sinai (which had its lore tagged dropped) but is extremely rare. In 3 days of camping, haven't seen one drop. On top of that the weapon is tagged no trade unlike the similar chaotic ass dagger which is merely tagged 'magic item'. Rarity isn't a problem, but the no trade tag is as 2 classes depend on this item (bst and monk) for upgrades and considering how dependent they are on this one weapon, it should be much more common. IN comparison I have had all kinds of war/sk/shd/bez/rog weapons drop constantly. Even the 2 shields that drop, drop frequently enough to consider them mostly trash.
- in t2 I have found 1 single 1hb with an avatar proc. The weapon is a very minor upgrade to the sinai, like 23/20 vs. 22/20. The proc is virtually useless at this point. Most players are at their cap on stats so the proc adds nothing. I would suggest an bard OH on this item that is either clicked, or procs a 40 percent OH haste to be inline with monks/bsts having a higher inherit haste cap than other classes.
- Tanking, same problem as the bst. Block is either on par with parry or worse. While a monk is never going to be the same as a war in defstance, they ought to be able to tank for a built in a pinch and not one shotted instantly. They ought to block or dodge most attacks after a certain point while remaining paper dolls when they do get hit.
- Lack of 2hb in t0 and t1, only general use in t2. Monk 2hb were ledgendary with dmg ratios that pulled aggro from most tanks and procs that stunned mobs into submission. There is a serious lack 2hb weapons that are either mnk only or mnk/bst. The general t2 2hb is ok for most classes, but should be signifigantly better dps-wise for monks with a proc that either stuns the monk, or enfeebles the mob. This way monks would have to decide to go all out, or hold back some.
Final Grade A-
Monks are dependant on their ability to block and avoid dmg and the lack of weapons with serious dps ratios (mainly 2hb) is very limiting.
Warrior - lvl 68, no aa. here
The Good
- Lots of weapon variety starting in t0 with access to the willsapper (broken?) the fabled j-stick, their epic which is 2h and two 1h weapons
- weapons in t1 are good with the ass dagger, chaotic warlord's sword, the executioner's axe, the darkreaver, the mithril sword, and the yak. In addition, lots of hate's drop which can be supplanted with chaotic fun for additional procs and hate generation.
- t2 adds a nice 2hb with a slow proc, haven't done enough raiding to comment even further on additional weapon selection.
- Every major boss encounter requires a war in defstance. Only class who can tank in every situation.
The bad
- With a bot, a warrior is very hard to kill and can solo all the way through t2 until raiding starts. While all plate classes have this ability, none come close to the warrior.
-Bugged mighty strike disc that lets you spam flurry while using the disc to spamm non-stop crits. Doing this, a warrior can easily out dps any monk.
- Avoidance too high. Warriors have more ac and additional HP so they can asorb dmg, not avoid it. They move like monks and when they get hit, their ac and inheriant mit reduce the dmg in most cases.
- Puma on the chaotic legs. Simply too much dps for an instant cast buffs. Seriously limits the need for shm to cast this buffs which adds an incredible amount to war dps. If anything the instant clicklies between plate and leather ought to be switched. Plate classes should have the yaulp V and leather users the puma since most leather are dps and not tanks. Even in defstance, puma continues to pump out incredible dmg, through in an exe axe which can make any hit an additional proc and all I see is blue from the procs for 3 minutes and a lot of dead mobs.
Final Grade b-
Warriors in defstance should be a requirement on raids, not in trash clearing, non-uber type boss mobs, and shouldn't be a fairly reliable dps class. I think changes need to be made to their avoidance, the benefits of plate clickies and the other plate classes need a serious buff which I will discuss breifly.
Shaman - lvl 70, 30ish aa live/here
The good
- It's a shaman, whats not to love!
The Bad
- The Cancan line isn't strong enough and is not scaling well with the increased mana amounts. I don't even cancan anymore, I'd rather use my spirit orb. The amounts taken when you cancan should be tripled and a similar multipler applied to mana gained.
- Slows, too many slow immune mobs. Why not cap how much a mob can be slowed, but let shamans and beasts have some role on raids in general besides casting panther?
- Dogdog needs a slight adjustment to at least be on par with enchanter pets. My dog dies from reposites where my enchater pet can actually tank long enough on mobs yellow to it long enough for the tank to finish off his mob and then that mob. Reposites shouldn't kill the dog, but neither should it be a serious tank, but being back to stand it's ground is a must, especially if a mob is slowed.
- efeeblement line should have the amount of stats it detracts increased to make the entire line a must have on boss fights.
Final Grade A
Classes just needs a little love and some more consideration in boss encounters.
General Thoughts....
IMO, too much is being balanced around a warrior in defstance which leaves sk's and pal's out in the cold. In addition, SK's are seriously wounded with their disc's being centered around non-custom content, where as defstance works custom or not. CUrrently the 69 disc for sk's is pretty much useless. Instead of a 10k/25 percent reduction it ought to be closer to 100k/25 percent to make sk's effective while raiding, which is still far, far behind a warrior who absorbs 40 percent for 3 minutes with a low refresh.
In addition sk HT ought to scale with custom content, either through augs, aa or just in general. An sk using HT for 1.5k in dmg is laughable considering my palbot with a toothpick crits for 2800dmg. HT ought to make a huge difference, and it simply doesn't. I will leave the math to you, but 20-30 percent of a mob seems reasonable on a power that can be rarely used. In addition, more taps (mana or health) should exist on sk weapons and for larger amounts (1k or more) instead of cold dmg for example. And finally, given how tough custom content is, I would consider giving sk's a 55/60) pet (monk/spectre) when using augs to help with auxillary dmg. The pets would still be green to most if not all content a lvl 70 sk would be facing. The augs themselves could be an epic quest or come from a single epic mob.
Bots, I like bots, I love bots, but I find the whole situation too easy and not easy enough.
I would be interesting in having a bot quest master. To get your first bot you must be, say, level 30 and do a small quest involving tradeskills, or rare drops from each of the t0 zones from a specific custom mob, or say, collect orbs like with the 1.5 quest.
Doing this, I would also option allowing additional bots povided they are quest for, and a minimum level is aquired. Each level gets progressively harder and requires more and more teamwork.
So, your second pet could require you sac your epic 1.5 and do another quest to allow you to summon 2 pets.
Your third pet you slay every major boss and make a bunch of items requiring extremely high tradeskills and the completiion of some very epic quest.
And lastly, perhaps some avoidance augs can be added that are monk/bst only, that aren't lore and stackable.
Thanks.
To begin with, I will basically let you know which classes I have played on live and here.
Beastlord - lvl 70, 76aa - live/here
The good
- I have to say the increase to the pet is since. On live the procs don't scale with level and capped at 75dmg a proc when I played. The only reason for the variety was in stat buffs, resistances and the effects (some were de-taunts, other stunned). So it is nice seeing the pets proc actually benefit dps rather than becoming more and more of a liability.
- The increase in dmg is nice. The pets here hit harder than on live and I like that, I also like that pet can crit right away. Pets, while not a staple like with mages - are incredibly important to Beasts.
The bad
- Lack of bst/monk weapons in general. t0 has epic and at best the fabled j-stick which can work as a t1 weapon in a pinch.
- augs aren't impacting the pets much. I know you've said in the past that bst pets get the least benefit of the augs since they are about where you'd like them and because bst has access to awesome melee weapons. That said I have to point out that Bsts are a duel weild class, like bards. At best beastlords are a very poor imitation of a monk with no aa when fully specced. At no point to bst come close in melee output to a mnk with similar aa unless the monk is afk.
- Monks have a scaling dot that is better than the bsts
- Monk have roots and a slow (various discs)
- Monk have a pacifiy
- MOnk have FD
- And finally monks can Flying kick, doubles and as reposite. At 55 with t0 gear, my monk hits for close to 500dmg each kick. My monk is now 68 but is in leveling mode and I have payed much attention.
Beastlords on the other hand have,
- slow (65) with low resists
- stat debuff
- dots (rarely use)
- really good pet heals that need a boost all around)
- Pet procs
- pet haste
- Bstcrack (useless with items around like smr with clickly kei)
- pet
- instant nukes
At best, beast are a monk imitation of both shm and mnk, being a slightly better imitation of shm than mnk. The problem is that a lot of content is slow immune leave bst to play as dps, a role for which they are currently lacking because of design, and augs not making up for the inheriant lack of dps in the class itself.
As a general rule the pet should be 1/2 to 1/3 of the bst dps, this has always been a problem as the pets do not scale with bst weapons. The instant spells are like flying kicks, but they take much longer to cycle, and monks can end up doing far, far more dmg with flying kicks than the bst can.
The simplest solution would be to adjust the augs, or create weapons, like the epic 1.5, that buff the pets additionally. Now bst shouldn't me in the same area as monks, but they shouldn't be outright behind a monk either.
Additionally, when fighting raid content, pet whiffs too much. Even with augs pet is blue at 70 and isn't hitting as often as I feel it should when doing AD and other raid type bosses.
- Block/AC/Avoidance: This class and monks are absouluty useless in tanking anything but trash, and even then require heavy healing. On live the block skill was far, far superior to parry (I believe over 25 percent more effective) and bst/mnk avoidance was such that monks and bst avoided most incoming dmg, especially after around 1100ac had been reach. This let monks and bsts MT in a pinch or OT when needed. It also meant, when hit, because of low mit, they took heavy dmg if not outright dropped. Usually the monk or bst would tank for 1-2 mins, get hit, pop a def disc, get healed, tank, then drop giving their team time to rez the MT or have the ot move into place. This is a problem I will address again later.
Final Grade A
Class needs more dps benefit from pets and a more reliable dps pet for raids. Avoidance needs to be checked, class has almost no tanking ability, and mob immunities render bst slows useless on a lot of encounters making the hybrid useless.
Monk 68 no aa live/here
The good
- Monks play pretty much on live, all the discs seem to work and they are very fun and versatile.
The bad
- Huge lack of weapons. Outside of t0 where monks get their epic w/ OH and the ability to grab a falbled j-stick, the variety of weapons is too small.
- in t1 (guk,mist/kc) the only upgrade to the fabled-j stick is the chaotic sinai (which had its lore tagged dropped) but is extremely rare. In 3 days of camping, haven't seen one drop. On top of that the weapon is tagged no trade unlike the similar chaotic ass dagger which is merely tagged 'magic item'. Rarity isn't a problem, but the no trade tag is as 2 classes depend on this item (bst and monk) for upgrades and considering how dependent they are on this one weapon, it should be much more common. IN comparison I have had all kinds of war/sk/shd/bez/rog weapons drop constantly. Even the 2 shields that drop, drop frequently enough to consider them mostly trash.
- in t2 I have found 1 single 1hb with an avatar proc. The weapon is a very minor upgrade to the sinai, like 23/20 vs. 22/20. The proc is virtually useless at this point. Most players are at their cap on stats so the proc adds nothing. I would suggest an bard OH on this item that is either clicked, or procs a 40 percent OH haste to be inline with monks/bsts having a higher inherit haste cap than other classes.
- Tanking, same problem as the bst. Block is either on par with parry or worse. While a monk is never going to be the same as a war in defstance, they ought to be able to tank for a built in a pinch and not one shotted instantly. They ought to block or dodge most attacks after a certain point while remaining paper dolls when they do get hit.
- Lack of 2hb in t0 and t1, only general use in t2. Monk 2hb were ledgendary with dmg ratios that pulled aggro from most tanks and procs that stunned mobs into submission. There is a serious lack 2hb weapons that are either mnk only or mnk/bst. The general t2 2hb is ok for most classes, but should be signifigantly better dps-wise for monks with a proc that either stuns the monk, or enfeebles the mob. This way monks would have to decide to go all out, or hold back some.
Final Grade A-
Monks are dependant on their ability to block and avoid dmg and the lack of weapons with serious dps ratios (mainly 2hb) is very limiting.
Warrior - lvl 68, no aa. here
The Good
- Lots of weapon variety starting in t0 with access to the willsapper (broken?) the fabled j-stick, their epic which is 2h and two 1h weapons
- weapons in t1 are good with the ass dagger, chaotic warlord's sword, the executioner's axe, the darkreaver, the mithril sword, and the yak. In addition, lots of hate's drop which can be supplanted with chaotic fun for additional procs and hate generation.
- t2 adds a nice 2hb with a slow proc, haven't done enough raiding to comment even further on additional weapon selection.
- Every major boss encounter requires a war in defstance. Only class who can tank in every situation.
The bad
- With a bot, a warrior is very hard to kill and can solo all the way through t2 until raiding starts. While all plate classes have this ability, none come close to the warrior.
-Bugged mighty strike disc that lets you spam flurry while using the disc to spamm non-stop crits. Doing this, a warrior can easily out dps any monk.
- Avoidance too high. Warriors have more ac and additional HP so they can asorb dmg, not avoid it. They move like monks and when they get hit, their ac and inheriant mit reduce the dmg in most cases.
- Puma on the chaotic legs. Simply too much dps for an instant cast buffs. Seriously limits the need for shm to cast this buffs which adds an incredible amount to war dps. If anything the instant clicklies between plate and leather ought to be switched. Plate classes should have the yaulp V and leather users the puma since most leather are dps and not tanks. Even in defstance, puma continues to pump out incredible dmg, through in an exe axe which can make any hit an additional proc and all I see is blue from the procs for 3 minutes and a lot of dead mobs.
Final Grade b-
Warriors in defstance should be a requirement on raids, not in trash clearing, non-uber type boss mobs, and shouldn't be a fairly reliable dps class. I think changes need to be made to their avoidance, the benefits of plate clickies and the other plate classes need a serious buff which I will discuss breifly.
Shaman - lvl 70, 30ish aa live/here
The good
- It's a shaman, whats not to love!
The Bad
- The Cancan line isn't strong enough and is not scaling well with the increased mana amounts. I don't even cancan anymore, I'd rather use my spirit orb. The amounts taken when you cancan should be tripled and a similar multipler applied to mana gained.
- Slows, too many slow immune mobs. Why not cap how much a mob can be slowed, but let shamans and beasts have some role on raids in general besides casting panther?
- Dogdog needs a slight adjustment to at least be on par with enchanter pets. My dog dies from reposites where my enchater pet can actually tank long enough on mobs yellow to it long enough for the tank to finish off his mob and then that mob. Reposites shouldn't kill the dog, but neither should it be a serious tank, but being back to stand it's ground is a must, especially if a mob is slowed.
- efeeblement line should have the amount of stats it detracts increased to make the entire line a must have on boss fights.
Final Grade A
Classes just needs a little love and some more consideration in boss encounters.
General Thoughts....
IMO, too much is being balanced around a warrior in defstance which leaves sk's and pal's out in the cold. In addition, SK's are seriously wounded with their disc's being centered around non-custom content, where as defstance works custom or not. CUrrently the 69 disc for sk's is pretty much useless. Instead of a 10k/25 percent reduction it ought to be closer to 100k/25 percent to make sk's effective while raiding, which is still far, far behind a warrior who absorbs 40 percent for 3 minutes with a low refresh.
In addition sk HT ought to scale with custom content, either through augs, aa or just in general. An sk using HT for 1.5k in dmg is laughable considering my palbot with a toothpick crits for 2800dmg. HT ought to make a huge difference, and it simply doesn't. I will leave the math to you, but 20-30 percent of a mob seems reasonable on a power that can be rarely used. In addition, more taps (mana or health) should exist on sk weapons and for larger amounts (1k or more) instead of cold dmg for example. And finally, given how tough custom content is, I would consider giving sk's a 55/60) pet (monk/spectre) when using augs to help with auxillary dmg. The pets would still be green to most if not all content a lvl 70 sk would be facing. The augs themselves could be an epic quest or come from a single epic mob.
Bots, I like bots, I love bots, but I find the whole situation too easy and not easy enough.
I would be interesting in having a bot quest master. To get your first bot you must be, say, level 30 and do a small quest involving tradeskills, or rare drops from each of the t0 zones from a specific custom mob, or say, collect orbs like with the 1.5 quest.
Doing this, I would also option allowing additional bots povided they are quest for, and a minimum level is aquired. Each level gets progressively harder and requires more and more teamwork.
So, your second pet could require you sac your epic 1.5 and do another quest to allow you to summon 2 pets.
Your third pet you slay every major boss and make a bunch of items requiring extremely high tradeskills and the completiion of some very epic quest.
And lastly, perhaps some avoidance augs can be added that are monk/bst only, that aren't lore and stackable.
Thanks.
