What I am noticing..

Problem with pathing,spawns etc - post here
Jeido
Posts: 1265

What I am noticing..

Post#1 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:56 am

I've been paying close attention to damage intake at 70 and theirs one big thing I have noticed. Tanking damage is VERY spikey. I'm at 3400 AC on Jeido, yet Kael mobs or even Ssra mobs can still give me a severe beating if they get a good spike in. The thing is that the mobs either chain miss, or chain hit for near max damage. The only thing I can think of regarding this is that their accuracy must be too low, and ATK too high.

I know AC works strangely after a certain point, and it starts to make mobs accuracy go down the tube. What I am proposing (and seriously hoping will be considered) is that mob accuracy be risen, and attack be lowered zone-wide, mob-wide for all level 70 content except for group exp zones. (they're fine atm) I am not saying that the mobs should be made easier, rather I am hoping the damage will be more consistent so a tank doesn't go from taking little to no damage for 10 seconds and then the next 10 get SLAMMED for max hits due to the ATK on these mobs tearing through our AC/AA "mitigation". This makes tanking very stressful, and healing as well since it is like healing someone who has 0 AC one minute, then someone whose got 100% melee avoidance the next.

By lowering attack and raising accuracy you will both allow mitigation to actually do it's job, as well as counteracting the problem where AC makes mobs chain miss once you start to reach the 4k mark.

I hope you guys will consider this, and I'll be awaiting to see what you say...
Jeido, Founder of Evolution

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TheBloodmoon
Posts: 391

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#2 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:27 am

I can't say that I disagree with anything said. I've noticed considerable damage spikes as well in most 70+ content, and then at times, I take no damage or minimal damage. I can tank the same mob, nameds in chardok for example, 5 times over without defensive, and half the time I get steamrolled, the other half, I hardly take any damage. It's fairly inconsistent, so much that I never know what to expect. I suspect that leveling out the damage so that there is more consistent damage over a period of time, instead of large spikes sprinkled amongst a lot of misses would greatly increase the efficiency of not only bot healing in groups and their AI, but also pc clerics in the raid content. Even though the damage may be higher after the same given period of time, the distance between heals may be easier to manage, and more consistent.

Wish I had more technical knowledge to help diagnose this problem a little better.
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goodthink
Posts: 42

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#3 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:55 am

IIRC on live 1100ac was the magic number, after that mobs missed a lot and you had much higher mitigation.

Right now I have most of the avoidance aa and I am starting to work on the mitigation aa's and I have 1900ac or so (just chatoic w/ some t2 stuff). Usually I get hammered with a mobs enrages regardless, always hit and for max dmg in one huge spike. And when i am hit, it's always close to full or full. Very rarely will I see a half hit.

I chaulk much of it up to being a bstlord in general, but even with poor mitigation, at 1900ac I should see some positive returns in dmg mitigation or a greater boost in evasion. Right now I would chaulk my ability to avoid dmg to block being superior to parry, having a higher cap on block and i think dodge and not much else.

I will have a better feel for it once i am closer to 100aas or so (close to 60 now and working on more).

As a comparision, my shaman (who has a higher ac, but lacks block and has lower caps on dodge//parry) gets creamed in situations where he has to tank. On live with a shm, you could tank a dragon or the seb king with just a torpor running and the reason was largely due to mitigation from ac once you got past 1100ac.

Jeido
Posts: 1265

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#4 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:27 am

goodthink wrote: Usually I get hammered with a mobs enrages regardless, always hit and for max dmg in one huge spike.


You shut off attack when a mob enrages, right?
Jeido, Founder of Evolution

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Tyler
Posts: 4365

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#5 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:44 am

By lowering attack and raising accuracy


I will update the following SSRA mobs with this settings for everyone to test (not doing ToV as only Evo has access to it).

  • Arch_Lich_Rhag`Zadune
  • Commander_Zherozsh
  • Commander_Zazuzh
  • Blood_of_Ssraeshza
  • Emperor_Ssraeshza
  • General_Kizuhx
  • Glyphed_Covered_Serpent
  • High_Priest_of_Ssraeshza
  • Rhag`Zhezum
  • Vyzh`dra_the_Exiled
  • Vyzh`dra_the_Cursed
  • Xerkizh_The_Creator

Changes will become live after todays reload.
Item Change -> Reload needed
Spell Change -> Reload AND new Spellfile needed

Jeido
Posts: 1265

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#6 » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:13 pm

I did some testing today and here are the screenshots.

Ssraezsha Temple, Commander Zazuzh:

Image Image

Kael -- One mob

Image Image

Image

Image Image

Now if you look at the kael mob, you will see on the second picture what I mean about chain misses. Another big problem is that the kael mob is actually doing as much, or actually more damage than the Ssra named. If you ask me, the ssra named should be harder than Kael mobs. Kael mobs are slowable though, which I guess does make them easier once slowed but still. They seem to hit for max (or near max) too much for a 3.4k AC tank.

The commander changes are definitely noticeable, but now I am beginning to think that there might be a problem with the minimum hit being 600 on them. I know I was the one who actually recommended that it was that high, but now that it's still just as difficult to tank with 3.4k AC as it was with 2.4k AC then I think it should be lowered. This way AC will be much more noticeable, and thus will make more of a difference as it should. I would also say that Kael trash/named would need to be re-tuned accordingly also, maybe you could change the ssra named again and someone could post the results? I will be pretty much offline for the next week, so I can't say when I'll be on to test it past tomorrow morning.
Jeido, Founder of Evolution

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TheBloodmoon
Posts: 391

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#7 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:58 am

Hopefully, I'll run a crew through Ssra to raid some of the bosses. I can't guarantee when that will be, but may not be for another day or two. It would seem, however, from Jeido's screenshots, that the accuracy may be a tad closer to normal, but the attack, or minimal hit, is out of whack. It looks to me that there were a lot of hits for either ONLY max or ONLY min (on ssra named), which is CLOSE to evening out as an average of around 900 damage per hit, but I can't say for sure without a time stamp on those hits how negatively or positively that would effect overall "damage spikes". I'm honestly curious to see a mob dps parse on a tank now. I wish I had some mob dps logs from prior to compare. I guess my cleric(s) on our raid will tell me if they notice a HUGE difference, lol.
Founder of <Progeny>
The Bloodmoon Clan

Jeido
Posts: 1265

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#8 » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:05 am

Good news, AC does in fact work on Emu! (pvp at least) I dueled Irualdin tonight to test it out and he was mostly hitting for 3-600 non crit, whereas on mobs he breaks 1k very often. I had 3450 AC, he had 2200 ATK. Idk if this helps any, but figured I would point out that mitigation at least works on emu ><
Jeido, Founder of Evolution

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TheBloodmoon
Posts: 391

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#9 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:20 pm

I feel, at least somewhat, that the changes made still need some tuning, but are closer to a reasonable value.

On Arch Lich, Glyphed, Exiled, and Cursed in Ssra last night, I feel like the damage output was manageable, without the usual "out-of-nowhere" damage spike. Mob accuracy seems to be much higher than before, however, with attack values being closer to where they should. Although, our secondary tank has a couple hundred or something less AC than I do, and he took CONSIDERABLY more damage from Cursed than I did, according to the clerics, making him much harder to heal than myself. The difference was night and day. There seems to be a point where there's a steep drop in AC value against mob accuracy and attack. Without exact numbers, however, I know it would be hard to narrow down the right balance. My logs only show what I have in my parser of myself, and that mob accuracy seems to be hovering around the average of 80%. That seems high to me, on a 2.8k ac tank, but still not terrible.

Here's a graph of Cursed hits though...this the number of each swing that was landed (keep in mind that defensive disc was on for the entire time of this log, minus the pull):

Image

Fairly interesting.
Founder of <Progeny>
The Bloodmoon Clan

Jeido
Posts: 1265

Re: What I am noticing..

Post#10 » Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:29 pm

Just wondering, how many clerics did you have for Cursed? That damage seems more than reasonable to me, cursed should be the 2nd toughest in the zone imo. (and it was always fun fighting him because he was) I remember our first Cursed kill we couldn't do a CH cycle, instead we had to cycle AHL spam in between mana click CD's, for example. That was a gratifying kill :)
Jeido, Founder of Evolution

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