Citadel of the Worldslayer

[Ydiss]

Bane damage for body type shows on magelo but race doesn't (you can see this on the Rallos Zek bane weapons). I don't know the reason this is the case.

I'll cover drop rates later because I want to talk about that separately.

Loot availability

So, to reiterate about the loot availability in cotw (ie what items are on offer)... I'd recommend looking at what drops if you're wanting to maximise your time against item acquisition and pick a group based on what items you need for the classes. But I'd say that is true for all group instance zones, really; none of the group instances on THF will yield a lot of useful loot on every run for every group member.

So you're right that you'll gear up more characters' missing gear in dsk but that is understandable; it's a raid zone, it should be a primary source of gear. It would be wrong if you could get all the gear that's available in dsk by doing a group instance.

But, and I get the impression you may have missed this key point, loot availability between the two zones hardly crosses over at all...

Of all the 50+ items you can get in cotw, maybe 8 of them have a direct equivalent item in dsk. That's roughly 40 items that you can get in cotw that have no T7 equivalent. In that list is a lot of slot 8 augments, as you did point out, but you may not know that you just cannot get anything similar unless you go back to t5/6. There are also several focus/worn items that just don't exist at all in Dsk, including no leg items at all. So I'd suggest checking what you need specifically, looking on alla clone and focusing your effort into whichever of the two zones has the items you specifically need. It may be you don't need any of the items in cotw and that's fine.

Item rarity

So item rarity. We didn't want to make cotw the type of zone you can do 4-6 times then forget. That's it basically.

That said, I appreciate that it's not going to be much fun if you get the ranger belt, mage bracer, bard boots and beast lord arms frequently (particularly if you don't need them).

I'm considering an alternative but it's the same in Dsk if you look at the similar items there. And, at the end of the day, Everquest has always had this "fun feature" where stuff you don't want drops

We can definitely review the drop rates at such a point that players actually run the zone more than a couple times and give feedback about specific items/npcs. I appreciate that you may not have a specific need to do this based on what is on offer, though.

Thanks again!

[Nexor]

Well i didn't expected to be done after 4-6 runs to finish getting the gear for one character.

But the thing is since the bosses don't always drop a item besides the Potion i find it a bit discouraging to do em, lets take Zuru as an example http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/npcs.php?id=430012 .
Zuru has 3 loot tables.
A1- with 100% chance to drop the potion
B1- with 50% chance to drop 1 of 8 items
C1- with 5% chance to drop 1 quest item

What i would like to see happen is that bosses have a 100% chance to drop something from there in this case B1 loot table like it is currently in place for Bixt http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/npcs.php?id=430013
A2- 100% chance to drop 1 of 19 Augments
B2- 50% chance to drop 1 of 9 items
C2- 1% chance top 1 quest item

And for Bixt also a 100% chance to drop something from his B2 loot table since he is the final boss of the Instance.

I'm considering an alternative but it's the same in Dsk if you look at the similar items there. And, at the end of the day, Everquest has always had this "fun feature" where stuff you don't want drops

This would still allow it

Short version to make the instance more appealing after a few runs i would like to see if all Bosses could have a 100% chance of there B loot table.


In regards of feedback for the boss fights , for me personally i found boss #3 the most challenging of all 5 due at least 1 maybe 2 of the adds seem actually tougher (or at least more hp) than the boss itself.

[Nizzy]

Where is that thread Necro meme when I need it?

I did a Bixt Search and ready every post with his name in it and I see feedback similar to what has been given already but I wanted to add some as well, even if this is a year later.

First thing on his loot table as mentioned as "A1" in Nexor's post above. I noticed while he can drop any of the augs from the previous minis. he does not seem to drop any of the augs that Zuru drops.
Just as an observation on the augs on his loot table that Kraxt, Livi, and Uzur drop that are on Bixt's loot table.

Looking at the augs themselves Thoughts, Grasp, Embrace and Stance are available from Bixt, Minis and all trash in the zone. Where Heart and Stride are available from Minis and Bixt. - My suggestion remove the ones that are available from trash from Bixt table, the reason being if I have just done this zone to get to the end with his loot table percentages I have an 84% change to get an aug that also dropped from the very fist mob that I killed when I entered the zone.
I have done this twice today and that is actually what happened to me, Bixt dropped augs that trash mobs had dropped.

And for Bixt also a 100% chance to drop something from his B2 loot table since he is the final boss of the Instance.

I fully agree with the above quoted suggestion as well. If my gear was at the level this zone was designed for and I just cleared the zone and I received an aug that trash drops I would be disappointed.

Overall I really like the zone, averaging 7 aa per clear and I am determined to have a Bixt's Final word. Which so far looks like it is going to be the Ultra Rare item that I must have.

[Ydiss]

Thanks for the feedback, Nizzy.

This is a good time to get this in, part of the impending content update is a revamp of cotw.

I'll try to address each point. For some reason, I totally missed Nexor's post from a year ago. I'll cover that quickly first.

Recently, some players reported that the cotw quest was taking far too long to complete. I've listened to that and changed these items to 100% drop (still need a full clear to Zuru per character).

Nexor's suggestion (make stuff drop more but make foresight items rarer) would contradict that (in his defense, his suggestion was made before anyone realised the foresight items were actually part of a progression quest). So, at this stage, I'm not going to go for that change.

Having said all of that...

The revamp means I'm up for changing things up based on how cotw will be once revamped.

Bixt is getting a significant overhaul in the update. How I intended him to be was definitely not how he is now. But I've gained a ton of experience since then

He's going to be a much bigger challenge, one befitting the god of discord I hope, so I definitely agree that he should drop something useful 100% of the time.

I also agree that it's a bit anticlimactic that he can drop the same augment as trash mobs.

So, I propose the following changes to Bixt:

Merge A1 and B1 into one list, 100% chance to drop.

On that list include only chest and leg augments, final word augment and all items on B2. Give everything an equal chance to drop including the final word.

(ps never intended Zuru's discordant augs to drop from Bixt)

My proposal for mini bosses:

Keep the same but make the main loot list 100% drop rate. You'll always get something but might end up with a trash augment.

Additional proposal:

I can make it so Ghillie will accept four trash augments of the same type for something fun. I'll have a think about it.

[jiladce1]

Thanks for bringing this up Nizzy, I've been wanting to post on this topic, but hated to bring up a year old thread.

Ydiss, thanks for the response, you pretty much cover everything I was going to bring up.

I have done COTW six - eight times in the last week or so, most of those with an on tier group and some with a group that way out gears it. Let me just say it is outstanding content and I really enjoy it, the loot is great when it drops and is a big upgrade for an on tier group. I think all of the fights are fun and do able for an on tier group with no donor equipment, though I will admit two of those fights I am doing in a way I doubt you intended.

Ydiss, you cover most of my loot concerns, I have killed Bixt 6-8 times and every time except for once he either dropped nothing or what he dropped rotted. I think removing the "trash augs" from his loot table would solve this, removing them and increasing the drop rate would definitely make a Bixt kill more appealing. I have also wondered if Bixt loot should have a second type 8 aug slot, most zone bosses include this but he does not? Not really sure where you intend him to fit within the realm of tier 7 if you know what I mean.

I personally wish the mini's did not drop "trash augs", but if you up the drop rate to 100% I think that solves the problem, especially if you introduce a quest or turn in of some sort that can be done with those augs. I vote for a turn in of one aug for one of the food or drinks that ghillie gives on a successful completion.

The only thing I haven't seen anyone bring up that concerns me loot wise is the pieces for the charm 8.0. Right now every run can only drop two pieces and there is no guarantee that those two will be the two you need. I have two groups that I play at different times and I have cleared COTW 6-8 times and only have one charm 8.0, it would take a lot of runs to fully equip both of my groups. I think either the Vitrik's should have a low chance to drop the pieces or that there should be more Livi's Elite Creations per instance. Maybe more of the roamers, like the first one you encounter. If there were more roaming LEC's maybe with a short re-spawn time it might change the way I have to handle the zone, there would definitely have to be a planning aspect to fighting the mini's to ensure I didn't get any unnecessary adds.

On increasing Bixt's difficulty, I don't disagree that he needs to be harder, he is not currently the hardest fight in the zone. But I would advise caution, for a group that is fighting this content on tier with no donors it is very difficult. COTW is a challenge and I have to be very careful. I can't get crazy with pulls and need to be prepared for most of the mini's, if you increase the difficulty to much I worry that the content will be to hard for the tier.

Man this was a huge post, all in all COTW is great, I would really like to see more group focused content like this.

Thanks all your work on the content.

[Ydiss]

Thanks for your feedback, really appreciate it.

Bixt loot and additional 8 slot. The reason I didn't add this was because of the large gap in difficulty between Bixt and Xeru. It didn't make sense to give Bixt loot that was comparable.

Bixt's gear is on par with the rare drops from the mini bosses in DSK. I felt that was fair enough. Even after Bixt gets his upgrade, I don't think he's going to be a harder challenge than the likes of Azail or Visath. So I'm hesitant to give Bixt items that are better than what you get from those encounters.

The legs he drops fill a gap in T7 (no legs from dsk) and the weapons an alternative to the similar items in DSK. I'll reconsider this after release if it turns out a change is warranted though.

Charm 8, I hear you. It's actually a bit simpler as a quest than I would probably do now and doesn't really scale up from charm 7 enough. So the rarity was part of that decision (to limit it to two per run), particularly as you can run cotw back to back without any delay (if you wanted to farm the charm you could do that).

But I like the idea of having more Elites to evade throughout the zone. It'd both increase the challenge of the zone and make the quest a bit less grindy. So consider it done. Enjoy the extra adds

I may do this in a slightly different way though. Watch this space.

There will be more charm quests. They'll definitely be more epic than 8.0.

On Bixt's difficulty, don't worry I'm not just going to increase his dps or health. They're remaining the same. His revamp goes way, way more outside of the box than that

Finally, quick footnote on your comment that you competed bosses in a way possibly not intended. Can you please pm me the details? Don't worry, it's not to get you in trouble I'm keen to know more. It actually may be that I've already plugged a couple "work arounds" that I thought of myself (ie it may be your tactic may already be prevented in the upgrade that's coming soon). I'm just interested to know if that's the case.


Thanks again!

[Nizzy]

Great conversation here! So let's continue. Yes I am copy and pasting and jumbling posts above together. I hope its not too long.

He's going to be a much bigger challenge, one befitting the god of discord I hope, so I definitely agree that he should drop something useful 100% of the time.

Bixt's gear is on par with the rare drops from the mini bosses in DSK. I felt that was fair enough. Even after Bixt gets his upgrade, I don't think he's going to be a harder challenge than the likes of Azail or Visath. So I'm hesitant to give Bixt items that are better than what you get from those encounters.

So these two quotes making him a bigger challenge but not harder than Azail or Visath.
I can go in right now with Otho, Nizzy, Hain and a cleric and destroy those two, Hatchet wasn't included but that fight is so brutally fast its not funny.
With Bixt the two other toons I have there which have been bard and ranger actually have to do something. I have been in there and almost killed Otho.

Same with the trash mobs, in DSK 1/2 I can pull a pile of them with out batting an eye. If I pull more than 8 I get a free trip back to bind. The caveat to this is the experience is so much better that having to limit my pulls makes it worth it to me. Now if I removed my donors and was in true T6/T7 gear I would probably be saying they are still too hard. Just like Tactics I still contend those mobs are harder than T6.

On Bixt's difficulty, don't worry I'm not just going to increase his dps or health. They're remaining the same. His revamp goes way, way more outside of the box than that

Just remember our current population is not what it used to be. Complex puzzles that require 6 people to be clicking on random colors, while ducking and facing north east and sending Lillu a tell are not feasible. I know some of us well see it as a chance to write a new complex macro. Some of us don't prefer that, it took us almost 5 years from the first DSK3 boss kill to killing Khasva in DSK3. The lag monster that was slayed aside which stopped some of us from even attempting to log in. When we do raid Khasva there are physically three of us playing. Could we do it with just one person with several macros going? Sure we could but believe it or not NV actually has 6 members actively playing and we enjoy playing together.

So, I propose the following changes to Bixt:
Merge A1 and B1 into one list, 100% chance to drop.
On that list include only chest and leg augments, final word augment and all items on B2. Give everything an equal chance to drop including the final word.
(ps never intended Zuru's discordant augs to drop from Bixt)

Perfect suggestion exactly what I wanted to purpose but I wanted to get the conversation started first.

My proposal for mini bosses:
Keep the same but make the main loot list 100% drop rate. You'll always get something but might end up with a trash augment.

I like it, I didn't really have mini feedback I thought they were fine.

Additional proposal:
I can make it so Ghillie will accept four trash augments of the same type for something fun. I'll have a think about it.

Fun but useful. Just for comparison, I don't bother looting LDON augs and turn them in for points. It would take me longer to turn in each one than it would just to run another mission. I hope that analogy makes sense.

Bixt loot and additional 8 slot. The reason I didn't add this was because of the large gap in difficulty between Bixt and Xeru. It didn't make sense to give Bixt loot that was comparable.

By an additional slot 8 do we mean a 4 aug slot item? If so then I agree with you this is group content not raid so it makes sense.

The legs he drops fill a gap in T7 (no legs from dsk) and the weapons an alternative to the similar items in DSK. I'll reconsider this after release if it turns out a change is warranted though.

Love this! Just wanted to point out DSK has class only items. I could link them but you know what I am talking about. I have known there is no a Druid only item, looking through the loot tables I didn't see a ranger only item. Maybe you could use this opportunity to also bridge the class only items that were not included in DSK?

Thanks for your feedback, really appreciate it.

Love you too.

[Ydiss]

Thanks again, Nizzy.

I'll keep the replies brief.

Bixt difficulty: I'm pleasantly surprised you find him harder than DSK 1.5 mini bosses. I'd aimed for the trash to be tough (upgrades of Ascent trash because I love how savage that zone can be) but didn't expect the bosses to pose as much of a challenge.

Complex tasks: this made me laugh . I'll let the content speak for itself once it's out. I'll say this though, every puzzle, encounter or challenge I've created has a cue, clue or logical reason (in most cases all three) to it. Nothing is random (there are no DTs unless there's some way to avoid it and it's not random).

Vaion and other devs have created some awe inspiring stuff in the past and it all made sense then. We've got our own ideas though and we feel they're more appropriate today. Primary question I ask myself is "is this fun?" so I hope the Bixt fight will give an idea of what to expect with much of the high end future content.

There are some tasks that'll demand strong communication and planning. One or two might be extra challenging for those of us who box alone. But I've not designed anything purely to discourage boxing or that requires an intense level of Mq2 scripting to navigate.

Handing in trash augments: any ideas are welcome. I was actually thinking with Bixt's upgrade that it might be useful to convert the augments into a device that lets you teleport directly to his chamber after a wipe :p

[Nizzy]

Ydiss.. My dude.. Wow..

Love the Graphic on Conquest! I actually would rather have that graphic on my Entombed Ashverak.
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools ... ame=122936

[Nizzy]

I am wondering if we have a messed up loot table.

I am going to assume Livi`s Elite Creation NPC # 430015 is that the one that is roaming. If so two of the sought after quest pieces dropped today which was cool but it says 0 on the # of selected items on the loot table.

NPC #471024 from the mini boss 3 event? If so no quest piece dropped but the loot table only shows one item with a 100% and again 0 on loot table.

I did notice and like the change with mini 2 and 3 being static now. What I did not notice is are they rooted or tethered?