2hnder Balance

[jsre]

I can tell you 2H has no special parry modifier beside +dex, unless its visible on the weapon e.g. Parry +19% or Improved Parry.

[Taladome]

Nice post Mien. Ive looked through the logs of parses and seen plenty of those magic 49 and its kinda laughable and sad. Its a matter of luck, that Ive seen good runs and bad runs where the magic 49 just starts poppin up like crazy. Min hit modifiers I dunno much about but yea, there seems to be a way to modify it. Where is the middle ground though with min hit? Hard one to decide. Imo a weapon that crits for 2k+ hits on average for 1k its min hit anything lower than 4-500 is a wasted swing. All in all min damage is definitely another big killer of 2h dps.



Tal

[jsre]

Good post Mien.

Just want to reiterate the point that 2H is only less accurate in parses where +skill mods have not been equal.

Triple attack is dependent on double attack skill, 50% of it to be precise. Full bonus is applied from focus effects. So increasing double attack via +skill mods or focus effects will also increase triple attack chance. But not all melee classes can triple, notably - SK's, Pallies, Rogues, Bards, Beastlords are not on the list (can't remember for others). Intuitively you wouldn't expect Bards and Beastlords to as they don't actually get double attack skill pre-70. Knights will triple attack as a result of punishing blade AA's, but warriors and monks also benefit from flurry and rapid strikes (rapid strikes is something like 20% and 10% chance for an additional 1 and 2 swings, flurry is a single check for 2 extra swings).

It's pretty easy to add triple attack to everyone, which is something I'd do if double attack mods are used to continue increasing dps down the track.

You can also give warriors a high ratio sword and board weapon by giving it a negative 100% dual wield modifier.

Edit: oops correction

[TheBloodmoon]

I have to say, the "a-ha" moment went off when I read Mien's last post. Minimum damage seems to be that one piece in there that frustrates me the most when it comes to the DPS output from zerker, and even my ranger. I would consider this to be the worst culprit to 2h DPS.

As Jsre said, the mathematics of the code doesn't allow a disparity in accuracy when all things are equal between 1h weapons and 2h weapons. If the weapon skills are the same, and the NPC is the same, then the accuracy should be damn near identical across all weapons. I'm not sure how anyone can argue mathematical fact.

Also, from what Jsre has stated earlier in this discussion, if you raise the +% for weapon skills, you're going to hit the cap really fast (if not already at it). When considering future content, the developers need to have room to create upgrades, from a design standpoint. That may mean that weapon skill mods currently in the game need to be nerfed, I don't know. But I do know that hitting the ceiling now may have detrimental effects on content design down the road when it comes to itemization (EZ server comes to mind).

To me, that leaves the best course of action to consider nerfing current weapon accuracy via weapon skill mods (doesn't have to be huge amounts, but enough to give room in future content ...) starting from the top down, and raise weapon ratios slightly to compensate (in the case of 2hers, maybe greatly). As content is released, the option to increase weapon accuracy via weapon skill mods still exists with this choice of action, giving the ability to still add upgrades to DPS via armor slot choices, and not just through weapons. DPS output won't be affected overall so long as the ratios are compensated enough to make up the difference. This may be a tough choice to sell, because no one likes the word "nerf" but it may be the better option when you play the numbers game.

Subsequently, modifying minimum hit chance from the bottom up on all 2h weapons to decrease the gap between min and max hits will also have positive effects on 2h weapons, enough to keep the option open in the future to further increase weapon ratios that aren't ridiculously high. Could possibly include bonuses to minimum hit damage (so that even if you do hit for min damage, a bonus will be added to the hit, turning those "49" hits into "149", for example) on future armor effects to help create a new gearing choice.

Disclaimer: I am no developer, but I do have a healthy understanding of mathematics. I only felt the need to chime in to help summarize my thoughts on this discussion as I read through all 9 pages. I am as interested as anyone is to help improve the quality of the server, and my opinions are only created to do so.

[TheBloodmoon]

To me, that leaves the best course of action to consider nerfing current weapon accuracy via weapon skill mods (doesn't have to be huge amounts, but enough to give room in future content ...) starting from the top down, and raise weapon ratios slightly to compensate (in the case of 2hers, maybe greatly). As content is released, the option to increase weapon accuracy via weapon skill mods still exists with this choice of action, giving the ability to still add upgrades to DPS via armor slot choices, and not just through weapons. DPS output won't be affected overall so long as the ratios are compensated enough to make up the difference. This may be a tough choice to sell, because no one likes the word "nerf" but it may be the better option when you play the numbers game.

Shame on me for quoting myself ....

However, I took a step back to look at this paragraph for a minute and came to the conclusion that this would be a potentially huge amount of work on the developers. Re-mapping the entire itemization of all weapons currently available would likely be painstaking.

I don't retract, or regret that paragraph, I just wanted to point out my conclusion before someone else chimes in.

I do, however, see benefit in this action, but as many have said before ... this kind of itemization is usually started from the ground up.

[jsre]

Rebalancing ratios means updating a lot of items, however you can avoid a lot of individual updates as long as you know the % effect +skill mod has on DPS. From parses in this thread it's nearly a 1 for 1 increase to hit rate, i.e. +25% weapon skill adds +25% hit rate.

Base hit rate is 69%? (it's a rule value, dev's will know). So the % increase to DPS from +skill is (+skill / base hit rate). If you halve the effectiveness of +skill on accuracy then you're reducing DPS by ((+skill / base hit rate) /2).

You can then use this value in a query to udpate weapon damage across the board. e.g. in simplified terms set damage = (((+skill / base hit rate) /2) * (damage / delay))

Just an envelope calc, but something along those lines, and thoroughly tested

disclaimer: maths isn't my strong point, but someone smart could work out an accurate formula.

[TheBloodmoon]

Thank you for that insight Jsre. I guess from my perspective, the work would be painstaking only because I don't have intimate knowledge of the code.

[jsre]

np, I think you're right about min hit reducing 2H damage too, if all things were intended equal it should be doubled for 2H, but it's not.

[Taladome]

The min damage problem is even apparent on other servers where you have weapons hitting for 20 50 100k sometimes in there youll see some hits lower than 100 lol. As I saw on the front page damage cap is now removed so there is one less lever to worry about.

I do not see a problem with weapons skill mods as they are its just the lack of them for certain weapons and the fact that they are very important for 2h weapons. Even if they locked them down as is, made sure all all skills had mods, and only increased damage of weapons I dont think anyone would even notice.

On a side note lmao I had to cut down a small tree today, I realize you cant always compare game to life but I had two options a hand axe and a 2h axe. I tried the hand axe and I was wore out pretty quick without putting much of a dent in it. Swinging two would have only made things worse and not even sure how to approach that lmao one for each side?. Switched to the 2h axe and it was down in no time. Couldnt find my skill mod but musta been low cause I miffed a few swings.


Tal

[Deadset]

On a side note lmao I had to cut down a small tree today, I realize you cant always compare game to life but I had two options a hand axe and a 2h axe. I tried the hand axe and I was wore out pretty quick without putting much of a dent in it. Swinging two would have only made things worse and not even sure how to approach that lmao one for each side?. Switched to the 2h axe and it was down in no time. Couldnt find my skill mod but musta been low cause I miffed a few swings.l

You should of used the ultra rare Chain-Saw, I understand that its DPS is outstanding