The Hidden Forest

Really need to be re-tuned imho. This is mainly in comparison to the donator weapon augs being so extremely extravagant for rogues.

Rogues rely so heavily on damage from backstab, and the backstab damage on their primary weapon is the *one* stat they need to focus so much on. The damage from this stat also scales up tremendously the higher it gets when you combine it with other buffs that increase damage %, like death march, donor buffs, shammy buffs, etc.

The issue I see is in relation to the donor weapon augs. Left/right eye has 95/105 BS damage. The best weapon aug I've found (I may be wrong?) is from Khasva and has 26? That's not a large disparity in damage, that's a downright different class imho. There are a remarkably large lack of augs in the game that increase this pivotal stat for rogues, and it essentially boils down to "donate and you are 5x better than you can be if you don't." No other donator type item is quite this powerful comparative to end-game. I understand that VT has yet to be released, and I'm sure there are plans to implement higher damage augs there, but the disparity would still exist even with 60+ damage augs there (and adding such large augs would only further boost already extreme damage for those who have both eye augs).

I have no issue with donating, I've done it a fair bit myself I just hate the feeling of "you *have* to donate", hence why I benched my rogue in dsk2. I also know that donator items are very unlikely to get a nerf, and that is NOT what I'm asking for. Let me re-iterate, I am NOT NOT NOT asking for a donator nerf What I would like to see done is a general retuning of the skill and/or of existing backstab augs. Heck, the first backstab aug you can get (outside of holiday events) is from DSK2 and is ?3? damage. That's pretty darn low. Solution wouldn't be quite as complicated as I originally thought. Add more backstab augs with higher damage, and decrease the overall backstab damage by a certain unknown-to-me percent. Just my opinion on the matter. Kind of sprung up on me when I looked at those donor weapon augs and compared them to the best one can loot in-game.

edit: had this posted in another thread, but it seemed like it might derail that persons original post so I moved it here.

---And on a completely unrelated matter, I was considering adding/changing out another toon, and was breezing through the donator weapons as a means of helping me decide what class I might want, when I stopped by the enchanter weapon. The 1.0 is fine and good, a higher level dire charm is superb, especially in conjunction with the robe that lets you charm mobs flagged as uncharmable (minus bosses, of course.) But the 2.0 buff looks like a joke to me. It's essentially a very lesser form of death march (DM4=+25% damage and kiss of life proc and has 100% up-time so long as sk has mana or the dsk1 ring, donator enchanter 2.0=+15% damage and 350 lifetap and only has about 65% up-time when factoring in focus.) Enchanter 2.0 buff really needs to be, well, buffed up imho. That, or change it entirely to something else, like a donor version of euphoric spasm. It's not useless, really it isn't. It's just less than half as effective a buff that a tank class can chain cast, which seems a little silly.

Perhaps you could clarify your idea a little bit more? To me it sounds like you are asking for higher BS damage (via higher +stat on augs) while at the same time asking for lower BS damage (overall lowering of damage). I'm also not sure how this would help the discrepancy between donor vs. non-donor BS, as the BP is really the key element to the increased damage and to be honest I think that donor dps should be higher than non-donor. I agree that the discrepancy may need to be looked at, and think that many dps classes (wizard, rog, monk) are not very great without donors (or even with donors in some cases). However, I'm not sure how an across the board lowering of BS damage does anything but nerf rogue's dps.

You're right that you're kind of stuck in that if you increase non-donor dps, donor dps of course goes up. I think the question that should be answered is how viable is it to do all content with absolutely no donors, and whether one would have enough dps to do so. If not, non-donor dps should definitely be raised (which would have the effect of raising donor dps, I know). I'm not sure that there's a solution that involves raising one and not the other. Maybe I'm wrong. Just my input and I'd love to hear more about your idea. Just a little confused on it at the moment.

There are actually 2 issues with rogue Dmg at the moment :

1. Backstab dmg rely mainly on main hand +BS dmg.

2. Most augs dont add + BS Dmg and so in comparision with having 2 donors aug it make a huge difference since you will get from 0 to 200.

Let's take any tier 9 ( DSK 3 ), Tier 8 or Events aug for rogue.

DSK3
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/items.php?id=122247 +27 BS
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/items.php?id=122237 + 0 BS

Chaos
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/items.php?id=121477 +25

Vistrinda
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/items.php?id=121470 + 0 BS

Elem Lords
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/items.php?id=121288 +6 BS

Christmas Event
http://www.thehiddenforest.org/webtools/items.php?id=121616 + 15 BS

So in a Donor Weapon :

Max BS dmg without Donor augs is : 0 25 27 15 0 = 67

Max BS with Donor Augs is : 105 25 27 15 95 = 267

After trying different combination on main weapon, the thing to look after is clearly + Backstab Damage when BP is used. Outside BS the total DMG will be more important of course but at this point it is worth loosing 2 dmg for +10 BS dmg on main hand.

I am not sure if this was intented but its a bit disapointing since some augs got +BS and some dont.

To conclude I would say the gap from Legit to Donor regarding backstab damage is big and a possible solution would be to improve BS damage on some of the "legit" augs to balance this difference and at the same time make a cap to prevent me from killing Draekon in one Stab !

Catlynne.

Chaos shard and khas shard can not both fit on the same rog donor wep. Also vule drops a weapon aug with +15 bs.

I don't think the issue is primarily on the +bs mod, but whatever multiplier the backstab skill is using.

Dreos wrote:Perhaps you could clarify your idea a little bit more? To me it sounds like you are asking for higher BS damage (via higher +stat on augs) while at the same time asking for lower BS damage (overall lowering of damage). I'm also not sure how this would help the discrepancy between donor vs. non-donor BS, as the BP is really the key element to the increased damage and to be honest I think that donor dps should be higher than non-donor. I agree that the discrepancy may need to be looked at, and think that many dps classes (wizard, rog, monk) are not very great without donors (or even with donors in some cases). However, I'm not sure how an across the board lowering of BS damage does anything but nerf rogue's dps.

You're right that you're kind of stuck in that if you increase non-donor dps, donor dps of course goes up. I think the question that should be answered is how viable is it to do all content with absolutely no donors, and whether one would have enough dps to do so. If not, non-donor dps should definitely be raised (which would have the effect of raising donor dps, I know). I'm not sure that there's a solution that involves raising one and not the other. Maybe I'm wrong. Just my input and I'd love to hear more about your idea. Just a little confused on it at the moment.

Sorry, should have clarified a little more. My idea: add more BS damage to weapon augs. There are far too few augs that offer BS damage, and the legit (non donor) ones that do have BS damage are laughingly low in comparison to donor augs. Note: I am not talking about the "stat" +Backstab damage, which does nothing but add that number to the end of the backstab calculation. I am talking about the "damage" backstab damage that daggers possess, the number that is factored in primarily when determining the main BS number. As a comparison, with the blizzard stiletto (60 base BS damage) is auged with 2x green ornaments (+15 each, so a total of 90 BS damage) the max backstab jumps from the low 40k's to the mid 60k's iirc (can't remember exactly, I sold those augs when I benched that toon )

And since adding higher BS damage and more augs with this damage would push already donored rogues even further into the "omgl33tdps" region, there would need to be an overall adjustment to the way BS works in order to prevent existing superrogues from becoming god-like. IE: an overall % reduction in BS damage. This would allow rogues without donors to actually continue to upgrade their DPS in significant ways, but reduce their superpowers. Or, like Catlynne said, add a hard cap on the maximum damage a BS can do. Yes, the BP plays a HUGE role in DPS with the faster BS's, harder BS's, and quad BS's, but that feature should stay the same (though a similar but lesser type clicky might be added with upcoming content? puhlease? ) Putting a cap on max BS, or reducing BS globally (while adding more/better BS augs for weapons) still keeps the donor items viable, but reduces the Grand Canyon sized gap between the two status'.

My vision isn't to make rogues more/less powerful; it is to lessen the gargantuan gap that is created by having pitiful non-donor BS damage on a dagger vs the "how can I fit that many digits into the item window" BS damage that comes from left/right eyes

I watched a rogue kill an HoH mini in what literally couldn't have been more than 2 seconds the other day and I nearly wet my pants. TWO seconds. I know they get steamrolled by anyone and their grandma who wants/needs em, but wow



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Masthycator wrote:and at the same time make a cap to prevent me from killing Draekon in one Stab !

Catlynne.

I KNEW it!

Masthycator wrote:and at the same time make a cap to prevent me from killing Draekon in one Stab !

Catlynne.

The sekret is to break the int32 barrier and you roll back to zero. Unless Vaion customized THF source for backstabs

It sounds to me like everyone is asking for them to be closer in + BS dmg. While I brought this up personally with Vaion and Lillu many months ago regarding some discrepancies with a certain weapon and aug combination being superior to the donor, the khas and chaos augs were actually lowered at the time and the weapons were streamlined to be more linear with comparable options. The only clear answer you guys would get from what you seek is actually having the donor augs seriously nerfed, which I really doubt any of you want. By increasing what is in the game currently, you're almost asking for a higher possibility for more +BS on mainhand... let's not get greedy here!

The smart thing imo is to ether make the large +BS augs outside of donors match the khas/chaos augs in the fact that you have to choose the most superior mod for ONLY a slot 17 or something or to kill the overall multiplier by ALOT to compensate for any addition +BS increases to the mob dropped augs. The tests we ran months ago indicated that the white dmg on a weapon is either capped extremely low when calculating BS damage or not figured at all. To get the crazy damage everyone speaks of, you really have to donate for legs, chest, a weapon and 2 augs at minimum. I don't see how anyone can expect their non-donor rogue to be in the same ballpark as someone who has dropped 500-600 to be above the norm.

B-

Bordamere wrote:I don't see how anyone can expect their non-donor rogue to be in the same ballpark as someone who has dropped 500-600 to be above the norm.

B-

You're not "above the norm". You're in a completely different galaxy, flying faster than light spaceships with deathstar-esque planet destroying weapons where as people using non-donor augs are swinging moss twigs at rocks

All the dps classes, donor vs non donor, are in completely separate ballparks... But rogues are definitely in a different gap.

There's only one way to fix your argument here, however. Which is why I oppose any change at all. Raising the +BS dmg on mob dropped augs would only make the donor rogues even better than they are already. The only clear cut choice to appease your argument at this point is to nerf the donor augs. With all the 3.0's on the horizon, VT being worked on, there's no other obvious choice as far as time constraints go to make the gap smaller. If the rogue you watched "2 shot" a mini is making you feel small, there's other things you can do to boost your ego at this point without blatantly asking for a nerf.

B-