2hnder Balance

[Taladome]

Ok next set of parses, this time both 2h and duel wield, sune buffed etc...weapons.77/20 epic 2.0 h2h 78/20 1hb ldon wep. vs tier 6 2hb 155/35(put one aug in) both parses zero skill mods only max base skill.

Dual wield

Scalezor - monk
Statistic Total Punch Crush Hit
Damage 1492686 674721 527198 290767
DPS by type 2479.5 1120.8 875.7 483
Normal damage 351943 32047 29129 290767
Critical damage 1140743 642674 498069 0
Total attempts 3145 1622 1098 425
Missed 810 544 266 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 74.2% 66.5% 75.8% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 74.2% 66.5% 75.8% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 45.2% 35.3% 19.5%
% dmg as normal 23.6% 4.7% 5.5% 100%
% dmg as critical 76.4% 95.3% 94.5% 0%
Total hits 2335 1078 832 425
Normal hits 616 100 91 425
Critical hits 1719 978 741 0
% hits by type 100% 46.2% 35.6% 18.2%
% hits as normal 26.4% 9.3% 10.9% 100%
% hits as critical 73.6% 90.7% 89.1% 0%
Average hit 639 625 633 684
Average normal hit 571 320 320 684
Average critical hit 663 657 672 0
Max normal hit 1351 556 602 1351
Max critical hit 1258 1162 1258 0
Min normal hit 1 16 1 360
Min critical hit 2 33 2 0
1 attempt per sec 4 13 28 237
2 attempts per sec 11 229 519 80
3 attempts per sec 19 250 0 8
4 attempts per sec 106 80 8 1
5 attempts per sec 203 10 0 0
6 attempts per sec 154 4 0 0
7 attempts per sec 64 1 0 0
8 attempts per sec 15 0 0 0
9 attempts per sec 7 0 0 0
10 attempts per sec 2 0 0 0
11 attempts per sec 2 0 0 0
13 attempts per sec 2 0 0 0

Next 2hb

Scalezor - monk
Statistic Total Crush Hit
Damage 904780 771460 133320
DPS by type 1503 1281.5 221.5
Normal damage 174019 40699 133320
Critical damage 730761 730761 0
Total attempts 1141 960 181
Missed 343 343 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 69.9% 64.3% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 69.9% 64.3% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 85.3% 14.7%
% dmg as normal 19.2% 5.3% 100%
% dmg as critical 80.8% 94.7% 0%
Total hits 798 617 181
Normal hits 239 58 181
Critical hits 559 559 0
% hits by type 100% 77.3% 22.7%
% hits as normal 29.9% 9.4% 100%
% hits as critical 70.1% 90.6% 0%
Average hit 1133 1250 736
Average normal hit 728 701 736
Average critical hit 1307 1307 0
Max normal hit 2629 1138 2629
Max critical hit 2378 2378 0
Min normal hit 49 49 190
Min critical hit 102 102 0
1 attempt per sec 6 10 137
2 attempts per sec 69 118 22
3 attempts per sec 131 156 0
4 attempts per sec 95 54 0
5 attempts per sec 34 6 0
6 attempts per sec 9 0 0

We see here that the raw dmg output of dual wielder is 1996.5 vs the raw output of the 2hb 1281.5. You can say its the 35 dly to blame here, but if I remember back in the day from live, your two hand weapons were mostly double damage(maybe a tad more) AND double delay. Of course I still have an open aug slot that would make it 175/35. If I am able to I will farm the 20dmg aug and throw it in and give you that parse as well, but I can tell you now its not going to add an additional 700+dps to the parse.

Tal

[jsre]

Compare to live.. Tranq staff is 40/40, lammy is 9/19.

Staff of flowing water something lik 42/34 shortblade of lightning 13/19.

The double damage double delay assumption is incorrect

[Taladome]

Old live plane of hate

2h weps atk/dly
Anathema 36/30
Ashenbone axe 24/42
Culler 31/37
Gardash 30/58
Sunderfury 25/36
Theologian Claymore 20/36

1h weps atk/dly
Ashenbone Abbasi 9/25
Balanced Tonfa of Serenity 22/28
Blood Sword of Hate 14/20
Bloodmoon 18/28
Darkmetal Falchion 27/29
Marrow's Song 17/21
Nightgrowth Blade 12/23
Revultant Whip 5/14
Rod of Infinite Thought 10/30
Shrieking Ahlspiess 9/27
Silver Blade of Rot 17/35
Tarantella 15/19
Teir'dal Sai 11/19
Truesight Hammer 12/35
Tunarian Scimitar 8/18
Vexthorne 9/19
Darkmetal Holy Water Sprinkler 16/29
Dawnchaser 11/25
Diamond Rod 11/30
Etched Bone Spike 14/23
Hammer of Wickedness 13/19

This is old eq live plane of hate equipment. Of course if some damage delay ratios look terrible its probably because they are caster non melee weapons. Some are class specific even like the Theologian Claymore 20/36 if we half that 10/18 yea there are some comparable 1h weps here. Ashenbone Axe 24/42 half 12/21 again comparable weapons here. Sunderfury<war> 25/36 half 12.5/18. Culler 31/37 half 15.5/18.5. Anathema best 2h in zone 36/30 half 18/15.

I find it easier to compare from a zone designed to equip all classes. Is it "exactly" double? No some are better some are worse, but most are pretty close. If I remember correctly on live there was a damage penalty you suffered from having a 2h weapon with dly below X. Cant remember the specifics but do remember there being one.


Tal

[ChaosSlayer]

the old LIVE ratios are incomparable with what you have here.
There was short time period (Somewhere from Classics till Velious) where 2handers were comparable to 1hs, but they lost this edge soon after and were always behind in dps since days of Velious
Damage bonus, triple attack AAs, all that contributed much more dps to 1h than to 2h, leaving 2h well behind
2handers for knights end up even more worthless after SOE added knight only 1handers with insane dps ratios.
At the end, the only class who ever would want to use a 2h were ranger who tried not to pull agro, and zerkers who had no other options.

In my time on live (up to OoW era) there was only a single 2hander that was actually wanted by warrior - the Blade of war that dropped of RZ, cause it had massive hate proc

Also, looking at list below: Blood Sword of Hate 14/20 - to match against this, your 2hander needs to be either 28/20 or 56/40... the best 2h I see on the list is 25/36...

[Mien]

Tala, the 2h delay problem you're referring to was at the jump from 29 to 30. Particularly, it made the PoP-era 2hb 31/30 stun proc weapon quite superior to the 31/28 2hs (I forget the names, and am a bit lazy to go looking at the moment). Seems to be an open question if this exists on Emu or not, or, if it is, if it could be coded around to improve 2h weapons via delay boosts. Still wouldn't get around the miss rate problem, of course, but it would give the devs another lever to pull, potentially.

The real point of the BoW being nice, in my opinion, was to cut down on boss ripostes/insta-gib potential, as much as the proc. A couple of onehanders with good procs could probably out-threat it as current content. The 13/18 anger hammer from PoI and the Copper Hammer of Striking combo might have, though back then nobody was as into the numbers game, so it's tough to say for sure. Plus, who didn't like to see "huge numbers" in their tank crits? heheh

[jsre]

Tal, You just compared an original hate drop (Theologian Claymore) a 20/36 2H, to a 10/18 1H weapon?. 10/18 weapons dropped a couple of expansions later (think Phara dar loot came close in Kunark).

You've also compared an original classic EQ drop (Sunderfury) a 25/36 to a 12.5/18. Ventani the warder dropped a 13/18 that was seriously uber, 3 expansions later. Primal weapons were 15/20, and there was a lot of talk about them being overpowered.

You'll find that the better loot in that list you've given is from post hate revamp, while the worse loot is from pre revamp. Classic EQ item screenshots have the parchment background from before EQ supported an XML interface.

Not clear what your goal is, but I suggest you compare top tier examples of both types of weapons from the same eras. From the same mob where possible. Just compare melee to melee and not melee to caster, or melee to bard, or knight to dual wielders. That's why I compared TS and Lammy (both top end Kunark melee weapons from similar tier mobs), and then Shortblade of lightning with Staff of flowing water (both from BOT minis). And yeah you'll find examples of 2H which suck, just as you'll find examples of 1H that suck. Compare top weapons to top weapons and you'll see that 2H itemisation was generally close to 2x1H ratios (at least for monks which is what I played, and sorry Chaos but it was often a close call whether to use 2H or 2 x 1H ..)

And yeah I pay the 2H observation for wars, very few warriors bothered with 2H as wars had aggro issues with 2H.

[ChaosSlayer]

another huge problem with damage bonuses - is horrendous inconsistency.

Look:
before DB, a 1hander 10/20 is identical to 1hander 15/30
Once DB comes into play, say at lev 60, Both weapons get static +12 added to min hit, which instantly makes faster weapon better
This eventually leads to worse ratio weapon performing better cause its faster

For 2handers, the DB bonus for ANY 2hander under dly 42 has identical DB, which creates same problem as above, and only starts to grow for weapons with dly greater than 42

Overall, entire DB system is a total garbage. It should never have been put into combat code to begin with, and who ever created it at verant completely fucked up any comparable relevance between weapons and ratios.

[Taladome]

Can that damage bonus be modified at all or is it more trouble than it is worth?

Relevant points of thread thus far.

1. Missing or inadequate skill mods for certain skills ie 2hb 2hp etc. <Uncertain as the best route for implementing these mods. Via armor, augs, weapons themselves.>

2. Proposal of increasing skill mods for 2h users to bring them more in line with 1h users via accuracy, 1h weapon skills can remain unchanged. -Anyone disagree or complain?-<In essence saying that a 2h weapon is natively more accurate than a 1h weapon.>

3. Proposal of increasing damage or decreasing dly of 2h weapons to bring them more in line with dual wielders.<Increasing damage not so much a problem but devs probably have a limit to how much they will lower delay. Method of increase uncertain, via full database damage increase, aug slot increase, aug damage increase, additional augs implemented etc.>

For future discussion- Benefits of using 2h vs 1h+shield vs duel wield. "Example" 2h weapon receiving less riposites and higher chance to parry while suffering from a little less raw dps than duel wield yet more raw dps than shield and sword<With the exception of zerker which should be in line or above dual wielders in dps>. 1h + shield receiving much less damage while suffering from less raw dps than 2h or dual wield. Ive not seen or done these live parses on a specific mob or even know which mob is best to use for such parses to determine if those benefits exist or are negligible.


Tal

[Grey]

I like that last post Tal, I can comment on the 2H vs 1H + shield vs duel wield later, but in reference to your PM I think the last line isnt a either OR but a both.

[Mien]

Regarding availability of mods, if they go on all weapons, weapons is probably the easiest place to put them, from a player's perspective. Of course, that bakes the majority of a DPS's progression into one (or two) slots, plus whichever two they get Cleave and Ferocity from. Just to keep things more interesting in gearing, putting the percent mod on an armor piece would make sense - bracers seem like the choice here, as gloves/legs/BP tend to have clickies (not that the two are mutually exclusive). As an added bonus, this would give each tier two "major" upgrades to DPS, in the weapon and %mod slot, and two more "minor" ones in potentially upgraded Cleave/Fero.

I don't know that 2H necessarily needs to be -more- accurate than 1H, but if I was reading those parses rightly, it isn't. Making it more accurate would be one way to solve the output disparity, however. Of course, being a main 'zerker, you wouldn't catch me complaining if 2H was naturally more accurate...

A larger part of 2H's damage problems may be minimum hit. Really, it's another function of EQ's d20 reliance, but there's code for increased minimum damage mod, as on webtools/spell.php?id=8919. Working that into the mix as another focus would also help the equation, particularly if the devs can't or aren't inclined to alter the miss% numbers. (Minimum hits for 48, minimum crits for 100, maximum crits for nearly 2.2k... some of these things make me cry, and some of them make me happy. heheh)

Another possibility might be, if the code supports it, creating a new focus for 2H weapons that grants some Triple Attack skill, increasing number of swings and, mildly, flurry chance. Alternatively, later Ferocity focus on Live started adding minimum damage mod and triple attack chance (starting around Fero8, I believe). Or, another option, raising the effective attack cap in order to reduce the number of minimum hits. (Could wish that GamParse gave a better breakdown on damage, but it is what it is.)

2H vs DW vs Sword-'n'-Board
2H, as I said earlier, reduces incoming ripostes (via making fewer swings, both higher delay, and no second weapon). Additionally, due to the way procs work, it's more likely to proc effects on any given swing, assuming the same effect - not to proc more overall, however. Blame weird Verant/SoE math, but they actually tried somehwat successfully to let 2H have equality when it came to firing off proc effects. (Could've used that for double attack/triple attack/flurry, but...) Higher delay may afford you an extra bit of time to turn off attack before enrage, if you're pushing for every last bit of damage/threat. Other than that, big sparkly numbers when you crit. Really, this is the middle ground, when it comes to tanking - less incoming damage via ripostes than DW, less threat output.

DW has an extra weapon's worth of stuff to proc. As seen by the parses so far, it has higher accuracy, so generally more threat, the weapons being equal. Plus, it's the "classic" tanking style, from before we all knew any better. If you play chicken with enrage, DW stands the best chance of getting you insta-gibbed. Or with an unlucky streak of boss ripostes normally, for that matter.

SnB is what you duck into if you're not rotating tanks when your defensive discipline wears out. Added avoidance via the Shield Block AAs, which I'm given to understand add up to a tidy sum. Plus, you can probably beat your 2H or DW AC values with SnB AC. I'd have to check, but HP is more likely to be a wash. Damage isn't really going to be anything to write home about, though PAL/SK have it slightly better with their knight-only onehanders with superior ratios. If you get the board out, though, your personal damage output isn't exactly your top priority to begin with, and so probably not worth worrying about. The biggest problem here is that threat goes down substantially (especially, but not limited to, the times when you're flipping through three boxes trying to get off heals and keep the 'zerker's DPS up while tanking). Furious Bash mods help that to an extent, but, at least on live, there's been some concern in the past as to whether they worked at all.