2handers issues

[ChaosSlayer]

In sight of a recent issue with Zerker donator axe, we decided to start a thread to review other 2handed weapons which maybe falling behind to weapons 1handed dual wielded weapons, in order to bring them to match the dps output.

If you believe there is a 2handed weapon that is way underpowered for the tiers its obtained on (compared to 1handed DW weapons available on same tier), please post it (with link) along with the weapons you comparing it to to be matched in dps.

Please note:

-we only will be reviewing 2handers Dmg/Dly ratios at this time
-the 1handed weapons posted for comparison should only be those that could be dual wielded (so 1hand play/sk only weapon which tend to have massive dps ratio is not a base for comparison )

[TheBloodmoon]

So since it was the zerker dps issue that started this thread, I'll lead off with both 1.5 and 2.0 for zerker:

Ancient Axe of Raw Power
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: PRIMARY, BACK
Skill : 2H Slashing Atk Delay: 31
DMG: 78 Dmg bonus: 36 (lvl70) AC: 100
Effect: Fiery Strike VIII (Combat)
Effect: Coalescence of Anger (Focus)
Effect: Strike of Fury (Casting Time: 0.5 sec)
STR: +40 DEX: +40 STA: +40 AGI: +40
HP: +600 Endurance: +600
SV FIRE: +40 SV DISEASE: +40 SV COLD: +40 SV MAGIC: +40 SV POISON: +40
Extra damages (): +5
Combat Effects: +10
Accuracy: +30
Required level of 65
WT: 6 Size: LARGE
Class: BER
Race: VAH, OGR, TRL, DWF, BAR
Slot 1, Type: 4 empty
Slot 2, Type: 8 empty

Ancient Frozen Taelosian Blood Axe
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: PRIMARY, RANGE, BACK
Skill : 2H Slashing Atk Delay: 35
DMG: 128 Dmg bonus: 38 (lvl70) AC: 150
Skill Mod: Double_attack +20%
Effect: Coalescence of Rage(Focus)
Effect: Strike of Savagery (Casting Time: 0.5 sec)
STR: +35 DEX: +35 STA: +35 WIS: +35 INT: +35 AGI: +35 CHA: +35
HP: +900 Endurance: +900
SV FIRE: +40 SV DISEASE: +40 SV COLD: +40 SV MAGIC: +40 SV POISON: +40
Extra damages (): +15
Regeneration: +15
Endurance Regeneration: +15
Combat Effects: +25
Accuracy: +35
Required level of 70
WT: 6 Size: LARGE
Class: BER
Race: VAH, OGR, TRL, DWF, BAR
Slot 1, Type: 4 empty
Slot 2, Type: 8 empty
Slot 5, Type: 30 empty

I shouldn't really need to copy and link every single 1her 1.5 and 2.0 to compare, so I'll link the warrior 1.5 and 2.0 for an easy comparison to start off with and we can go from here if necessary...

Ancient Sword of the Champion
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: SECONDARY, PRIMARY, RANGE
Skill : 1H Slashing Atk Delay: 19
DMG: 30 Dmg bonus: 15 (lvl70) AC: 55
Effect: Rune III (Combat)
Effect: Echo of Anger IV (Worn)
Effect: Krekk's Presence (Casting Time: 0.5 sec)
STR: +20 DEX: +20 STA: +20 AGI: +20 CHA: +20
HP: +375 Endurance: +375
SV FIRE: +20 SV DISEASE: +20 SV COLD: +20 SV MAGIC: +20 SV POISON: +20
Avoidance: +10
Damage Shield: +5
Shielding: +5%
Required level of 65
WT: 2 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR
Race: DRK, FRG, VAH, IKS, GNM, HFL, OGR, TRL, DWF, HEF, DEF, ELF, BAR, HUM
Slot 1, Type: 4 empty
Slot 2, Type: 8 empty

Ancient Frozen Sword of the Champion
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: SECONDARY, PRIMARY, RANGE, BACK
Skill : 1H Slashing Atk Delay: 20
DMG: 48 Dmg bonus: 15 (lvl70) AC: 115
Effect: Rune IV (Combat)
Effect: Echo of Anger V (Worn)
Effect: Kreljnok's Fury(Casting Time: 0.5 sec)
STR: +30 DEX: +30 STA: +30 AGI: +30 CHA: +30
HP: +600 Endurance: +600
SV FIRE: +30 SV DISEASE: +30 SV COLD: +30 SV MAGIC: +30 SV POISON: +30
Avoidance: +25
Damage Shield: +20
Endurance Regeneration: +20
Shielding: +5%
Stun Resist: +10%
Required level of 70
WT: 2 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR
Race: DRK, FRG, VAH, IKS, GNM, HFL, OGR, TRL, DWF, HEF, DEF, ELF, BAR, HUM
Slot 1, Type: 4 empty
Slot 2, Type: 8 empty
Slot 5, Type: 30 empty

You can compare zerker 1.5 base ratio dps of ~2.51 (78/31) to warrior 1.5 base ratio dps of ~1.58 (31/19). Add another 1her from the same tier like Bloodfrenzy (base dps ratio of 1.4 even) and you have a total base dps ratio for warrior DW of 2.98. Add in double and triple attacks and warrior will outdps a zerker with those ratios on swing damage alone. Add proc dps and it's a clear win for warrior. Now let's look at 2.0 ratios:

Zerker 2.0 has a base ratio of ~3.66 compared to warrior 2.0 base of 2.4 even. Add in comparable tier weapon like Sharp Blade of Raw Hate (base dps ratio of ~2.17) and you get a total base dps ratio for warrior DW of ~4.57. The gap just got A LOT larger. Once again, add procs, double attack, and triple attack and berserker is again easily outdpsed. You could even put the Bloodfrenzy in instead and end up with a total base ratio of 3.8 and it still tops berserker 2.0 base ratio, albeit a small margin, but still ahead.

Of course, this is all on raw base numbers; RNG, mob AC, AA's, accuracy, strikethrough, even disciplines, and all those other dps increasing metrics will change the dynamics of the argument. But, no matter how you slice it (pun not intended), warrior dps shouldn't even come close to that of a berserker. If I understand the single defining characteristic of the berserker class correctly, than it is safe to assume that they are in desperate need of a dps boost to put them in line with the other melee dps classes. If you've ever played the berserker class, you'll know that frenzy and volley doesn't even come close to making up for the difference in weapon ratios. Perhaps the weapon tweaking is the start, but I would personally look into the base damage of said skills to help give the class the boost necessary to back on top for dps to at least rival rogues and wizards for raw dps.

[Rocums]

What is the weapon damage stat cap?

Should 1 handers be toned down and similarly adjust custom mob HPs so that there is more room on the cap?

[ChaosSlayer]

yeah that concerns me too.
there is a HARD unavoidable cap what weapon damage value could be set to - its 255.
If weapons with each new raid tier keep gaining the kind of difference you see between 1.5 and 2.0 epic- the next tier will be the last for 2handed weapons

I would be HIGHLY in favor of reducing the dmg value on all weapons down by HALF, but tuning down mobs hps won't be as simple, and may require massive testing afterwords.

Another issue - a lot of people will scream NERF!, the moment we do it

So, this is not an simple issue to solve. I believe Lillu would be willing to do this, to ensure we have more room for damage on weapons to grow in the future, but he needs to be sure, that players would back him up on this transition period which may take a significant amount of time to rebalanced the content again.

TheBloodmoon - thanks for posting, I will look into those.

[Rocums]

Well, this is the way I see it. Cut current melee DPS output in half, leave casters as they are, and significantly reduce mob HP. This will also probably make nukers actually have to pay attention to their aggro too, but they will also wield a lot more relative power.

I'm not sure if there are other options available to play with damage calculations (are they hard coded?). Can two-handers get a bigger damage bonus? Can we play with proc rates, give two handers huge nukes but increase their delay?

[moordian]

As someone who uses melee only toons (war, monk, rogue) I think it's a fantastic idea to cut dps in half and leave caster DPS alone. Not only would it open up room for more weapons to collect, it would also make casters useful for the time being. Yesterday Erewan parse a fight with Melalafen where my war did just shy of 1000 dps - not counting procs. That was in a fight that lasted nearly 11 minutes where I just turned on auto attack and paid attention to the healer. If you include procs, kicks, attacking from behind and toss in Panther on top of it, there is simply no way a caster can have a prayer in keeping up with that damage output for more than a couple of minutes tops.

[khaliss]

^ I agree, this is the reason why it is rare to see caster classes being played on the server.

[ChaosSlayer]

I guess we will have to put this to a players vote, as its a rather solid change, not everyone may like

For now, I have updated zerker 1.5 and 2.0 to:

1.5: from 78/31 to 90/30
2.0: from 128/35 to 135/30

[Lillu]

sticky

[Kron]

I remember from another server that they "claimed" you could exceed the 250 dmg cap by adding an Aug to the weapon.

So a 250 dmg weapon plus 100 Dmg aug makes it 350 dmg

Dont know if this is true or whether they were just lying though