Bard Fizzle

[striat]

My issue isn't so much fizzling though, it's the client/server sync issue. It makes twisting songs manually almost a joke, maintaining 4 songs can at times be annoying just due to the "stuck" bug coming into play. This is especially true if you're utilizing a targetted detrimental effect, like requiem of time. If the novel drawnir wrote about the last 100 years of EQEMU is true, then it seems there's no easy fix. I suggested removing fizzles until it does get fix, as the bug of songs getting stuck is worse than fizzles. Simple patchjob to help appease the already annoying bug that will stay around. If the fix ever comes to place, then take it out.

I personally would rather spend time fixing the issue than putting in a band-aid for fizzle to simply turn around and have to remove that band-aid . Some of these issues are not overly complicated. Some of them have gone unchanged for so long simply because no one really looked at it.

Also, watch the comments towards previous posters. I'd like to keep drama separate from my hobbies!

Also note that #melody isn't doing fizzle checks, and seems to stay up no matter what a mob does to you. I wouldn't mind removing #melody if we did figure out why songs are getting stuck. It seems a little too good, it is bypassing a lot of things and trivializing the class to become very ideal to box. The only complaint with #melody is if you cast targetted detrimental songs, it will cast it on you when your target goes away. If you did want to keep it around, and did a fix on that part, it'd be the point I don't think I'd really turn it off. Haha.

Oh, and #melody also has a tendancy to bug songs when you turn it off. You usually have to cast a song a couple times for them to finally work again. This is kind of like that other bard bug sync issue, but since it's predictable and always happens, it's not so bad.

I'm with you though, I would rather have melody removed. I like playing a bard when I have to do everything myself, and have it a challenge. Nothing saddens me more when people play bard as if it's just another buff bot box. I just wish it didn't bug out on me when you do actually play the class.

I think you may have misunderstood my comment. I meant, #melody was added to to the source in a broken state. It should have been actually functional and polished before it was committed and presented as an alternative to /melody to server admins. However, I have no problem with keeping the command, I just really need to tweak it. As you mentioned, there are several bugs and potential exploits associated with it.

Hopefully, I'll get a little time to do a lot of repair work to our good friend, the bard.

[Shin Noir]

sorry about that drawnir.. I think we talked in game, and I helped you with some questions.
I didn't mean to be rude, if you took it that way, I apologize.

And sorry strait, if I said anything too aggressive to you too. You're doing an awesome job with your dedication to making EQEMU a better place to spend your time on.

[drawnir]

sorry about that drawnir.. I think we talked in game, and I helped you with some questions.
I didn't mean to be rude, if you took it that way, I apologize.

Wasn't me, I haven't had time to log in since mid July. Even while I was playing, when
I level I go into anti-social mode. The only time I ever speak is when asked something or when the occasional special person trained or KS'ed me. That would be different if I was in a group, but I've spent 100% of my time thus far on this server boxing my own group.

[striat]

And sorry strait, if I said anything too aggressive to you too. You're doing an awesome job with your dedication to making EQEMU a better place to spend your time on.

I was just referring to some comments (not towards me) that is sometimes taken out of context on the internet and may fuels flames. Basically, that is all I want to help prevent here. I don't know about everyone, but I have enough drama in my real life especially with my previous job. So when it starts to enter my hobbies (such as everquest), I jump the gun and get a little defensive!

You don't have to worry about offending me I can promise;p And back on topic about the fizzle, basically here is the deal:

I think it is something I can fix relatively easy and in a reasonable time. Therefore, I didn't want to go the temp fix route. I would rather do you guys justice and give you a quick and solid fix. However, if it is something that is going to take a long time, I would certainly implement a quick fix. I was working on bards previously, but MCAT was coming up and I think I deleted some of my files;p So, I am having to start over.

[drawnir]

Here is the spot where I got some of the "100 years" (/rude ;P) of eqmu info: http://www.eqemulator.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24484
I added a bit from my knowelege of the issue on the live side as well.
I can try to find the rest of the links if you like, but I was explaining it as thoroughly as I could so an understanding could be reached without having to dig yourself. I know I can be long winded at times and I am sorry about that, I'm just trying to explain so that those unfamiliar with the class/issues can understand and hopefully fix it that much better. I will work harder at keeping it short(ish) since my aim is to help and not bore everyone to tears, haha.

Wow, this is a lot of talk about random stuff not related to bard fizzle

Yeah, that one IS completely my fault. Sorry for the hijack. I saw that Strait mentioning that he was going to take a look at bards and thought I would chime in with some other issues in order to try and help, inadvertently turning it into a maybe/maybe not bard issue thread. I'd take a fine tooth comb through everything that is bard and point it all out if i could, I did so on my other server, but I'm not that far on this server, level/aa wise or I would happily do so and I promise I would have made my own thread. I hope those issues were not an exercise in futility, and if so I am sorry for wasting your time Strait.

Of the little bit I've tried fading memories it seems awfully powerful. It just wipes memory, no mana cost, and fast recast time. Since I can use it while running as long as I have open space I can just spam the button and keep memblurring mobs. I guess I could test the whole invis part, too, but I haven't really bothered yet since I haven't had an opportunity to really need to use it. The invis part was just a little side bonus, I don't think it's as important as drawnir notes since majority of the things you would use fading memories on are so freaking tough they are going to see invis and aggro a mile away anyways (That's only time I can see lull not working too well). XD

/huff..not as important as i think? The invis is awesome by itself and honestly I probably used FM for invis (that invis song sucks! Who on earth is going to waste a spell slot for it???) as much as I did to shake mobs...if not more often. I really can't do it justice without explaining an entire scenario, but the invis is just as important as the memwipe portion of the ability. After you use it and have a need to use it you will appreciate both parts and know exactly what I mean. FM becomes as lovely and happy as selo's...believe me.

On live I had 35ft and about 18k mana. The only way I would go OOM is if I was messing around or died. I do not know if there is out of combat regen here (FM and charm were the only things that made me pay attention to mana regen; I havent swarm kited yet and don't have FM yet), but if there is no OOC regen, as Jeido said, prepare to wait a good LONG while for mana. That puts a damper on raids/groups. Like I said though, I never used FM enough to go OOM unless I was trying to (well yes i did, at first when PoP and FM came out. when the regen still sucked and we bards had 3k mana, but I have blocked those dark times out of my head), so go ahead and give it a mana cost again if you like.

Fading Memories is not overpowered, its only Invis+memblur. The invis is just darn handy, but it is just invis. While a monk can plop and is usually safe until he gets back up, bards have to distance themselves from the always present see-invis mob, hit FM and be on the lookout for another see-invis. Also, in most raid situations, selo's is not advisable..haha..I have fun stories on that one. Without writing a list that may resemble War and Peace, let me just say there are enough good and bad things between FD and FM to safely say they are pretty evenly matched.

I wouldn't mind removing #melody if we did figure out why songs are getting stuck. It seems a little too good

Woah woah woaaaaahhh.....Ok on live melody kept going and would move to the next song if one fizzled. If you want to do that fine, not really much of a difference other than you *may* not occasionally have one song for 12 seconds. I don't know about you, but I use melody for the monotonous weaving. I was forced for years to never talk or get all I could in 3 second busts until melody came out. I'll fight to the death to keep it!! Like you said, I still can weave and do when the situation calls for it, but there are other situations where melody is super nice too.

Regardless of our different stances on melody, I wholeheartedly agree with you on the maddening frustration a locked song gives you along with the difficulty of manually weaving with the delay, and agree it would be awesome to fix. Until that bug is fixed, we are merely a shadow of the bards that we could be. The song locking and delays have killed me many times while trying to juggle mezzed or lulled mobs, not to mention the frustration that I have one heck of a time getting a mob preslowed, tashed, and snared before it hits the group.

Oh, and #melody also has a tendancy to bug songs when you turn it off. You usually have to cast a song a couple times for them to finally work again. This is kind of like that other bard bug sync issue, but since it's predictable and always happens, it's not so bad.

This is a guess, and feel free to look at it and correct me, but I believe this is part of the whole client/host sync thingamajig. Here's how I fixed it: make a #melody on button and #melody off button. When you hit the off button count it just as you would a song and then begin weaving manually. You shouldn't have an issue. I'm just offering this to you in the event that it cannot be fixed.

Nothing saddens me more when people play bard as if it's just another buff bot box.

There will never be enough bards to go around, so let them box. I've also heard that bard bots also do an awesome job of weaving. I'm not threatened by box bards because the only time you see them on a raid is if there is room, and people don't waste big dkp on boxed bards. I've also never been passed over for a group because someone boxed a bard. It sounds like you enjoy playing a bard, so therefore you probably play one well, never be threatened by those who can't. When you see a boxed bard, picture a peaceful meadow and repeat this mantra: "While you may be able to weave 4 songs, I can pull, mez a few mobs, lull even more and still keep a few songs going for my group without having a brain aneurysm" ...and if you haven't seen a boxed bard attempt to play in a pinch yet, trust me when I say that when you do, it will from then on be your moment of zen...haha.

Again, I'm only posting this to help, not so I can go back and revel in my own word count ;P If there is any information I should elaborate on, or if there is information that I can look up, please let me know and I'll be happy to help in any way that I can

Thanks again for looking into this Strait, Tyler and Lilly (Edit: and any others working hard in silence). Having helpful developers is something almost entirely new to me in the world of EQ, and that is the main reason I came to this server. Your hard work is most definitely appreciated, and if there's a beer fund I can contribute to, please point me that way =)

[Tyler]

but if there is no OOC regen, as Jeido said, prepare to wait a good LONG while for mana.

Granted - i haven't tested it but you should be able to get Orb of Spirits at lev35 that should elminate all mana issues right here.

Anyways - we should and if technically possible will add a mana usage to this ability so you cannot spam it around the zone and be basically invincible.

[drawnir]

haha, wow! That works for bards?? I just assumed it was as useful as Clarity and other things that help mana, but are of no use to bards. Heck, the mana pots on live didn't even work on bards...go devs!

[Tyler]

Well as i said, i didn't test it Go check and let me know!

[Shin Noir]

I figured even if Orb of Spirits works for bard it'd be exploiting since I assume all mana regeneration minus FT shouldn't work for bard. So, I didn't even test. It's not like we even use mana really anyways with Fading Memories not requiring it.

There's a clicky improved invis ring out there drawnir in paludal caverns, I never use song. Even if Fading did get the invis element it'll likely have the mana cost, having a clicky earring with invis is likely more useful. http://thehiddenforest.dyndns.org/item.php?id=1716
There was also that cloak from the fungus ring event that dropped an ammo slot cloak that you could click for a quick invis. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7748

This is assuming your argument for the invis is based on just having invis as a utility aspect.

@ Fading Memories overpowered: That was noting how it is THIS VERY MOMENT. It costs nothing. It has a 1 second reuse timer. This is like, way too good. Once mana cost is added, it won't be nearly as powerful, it will be back where it should be. There is just nothing at this moment limiting you from spamming the button all the time and never really having aggro as long as you can outrun the mob. click fade over and over.

[Jeido]

/huff..not as important as i think? The invis is awesome by itself and honestly I probably used FM for invis (that invis song sucks! Who on earth is going to waste a spell slot for it???) as much as I did to shake mobs...if not more often. I really can't do it justice without explaining an entire scenario, but the invis is just as important as the memwipe portion of the ability. After you use it and have a need to use it you will appreciate both parts and know exactly what I mean. FM becomes as lovely and happy as selo's...believe me.

I'll explain a scenario really quick because it is needed! I'm sure everyones been to Akheva Ruins, so I'll use this. Once upon a time, Tendonslicer from Va`Dynn in Akheva was the best pvp weapon for a bard on EQ. I used to go kill it with groups, and since it was such a pain to break his room I would just split him to the entrance. Now, Akheva has lots of see invis mobs, but not by the entrance. I was able to pull Va`Dynn to the first room with the broken pillar, then fade (he would have a good 10-20 mobs around him). There would also be a bunch of mobs surrounding me from the entrance area, which do not see invis. So here I am on 1 side of the room, surrounded by about 3-4 mobs, and on the other side is Va`Dynn and his 20 mobs. Once I faded, I would be invis. I was safe from the 3-4 around me (bards can't tank ). I had the chance to wait for vadynns adds to clear, and basically just work out the pull until I finally got it down to just Vadynn and a few other adds. By this point, i'd pull closer to the ent and would usually have Vadynn + 3-4 more. I'd lull the others, then just pull Vadynn and bam he was inc to the ent all by himself.

As you can tell, if there wasn't an instant invis associated with fading memories, then it would not have been possible to do that pull. There are MANY other pulls that I can say the same thing about, but this is a good example in itself I believe. Using another invis clicky that's separate for FM just won't work...it's not how EQ coded bard pulls.