Old topic, tryin to bring it back to life for those who are suffering from 2h dps issues. I was playin on my monk (which does great dps btw) looted a nice 2hander threw an aug in it and went to work on some dummies. I almost freaked that I saw my mean dpsing monk dropped down to 1k dps just by switching to a 2h weapon. I thought to myself theres gotta be something more to it, my skills are maxed, I realize that your gonna get more procs off two weapons, but to drop down to 1k dps was sad. For raiding I normally keep chat completely filtered out so I turned everything back on to look at things more closely.
I noticed that my master of the staff monk was missing with its 2hander an insane amount of the time. Sometimes would miss like 5 in a row. Each miss is a potential 2-3k crit hit of dps poof gone. Sure misses are part of the game, checked it with 1hb weps and h2h and ill get a miss maybe 1 out of 7 strikes and never miss more than twice in a row. Double checked that my skills were maxed etc. Then logged on war to see what he was like with a 2hander. Skills maxed same deal, missing tons even up to 5 in a row compared to 1h weps.
Conclusion, I know the devs have stated the potential problem and hard fix to 2h dps because of the 255 cap, but to be honest I feel the majority of 2h dps is lost to do irregular min hits and missed hits. If you have a 1000/30 dps 2hander your dps still gonna be crap if your missing constantly. The accuracy and min damage of weapons may be hard coded in the game, this I dont know, but maybe 2h users could get items that somehow boost thier accuracy and raise min damage with 2h weapons to make them viable for dps and bring them in line with duel wielders, without the need of considering other options like putting 4kdmg procs on 2h weps or lowering all other classes damage all together.
Tal
2hnder Balance
Re: 2hnder Balance
I'll have to parse this now because I use Xeru 2h on Grey the majority of the time since Jekudo does most of my tanking. I know its not as good as my 1h setup but it was solid enough dps to pull agro a few times.
Can you post a parse on your monk, I always wanted to use a 2h on my monk but always felt the 2h weapons for monks were to bad to bother.
Can you post a parse on your monk, I always wanted to use a 2h on my monk but always felt the 2h weapons for monks were to bad to bother.
Re: 2hnder Balance
Sure ill throw a parse up shortly with both war and monk using 2h, of course these wont be 255 max damage 2h but youll get the picture
Tal
Tal
Re: 2hnder Balance
Both parses on vlar from the back with sune buffs.
Monk using aged bo staff of trorsmang augs removed only lure proc from wep with true fire focus
Scalezor Vlar in 604s, 945k @1565 --- Scalezor 945k
Statistic Total Crush Hit
Damage 945248 844069 101179
DPS by type 1565 1397.5 167.5
Normal damage 945248 844069 101179
Total attempts 1053 977 76
Missed 307 307 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 70.8% 68.6% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 70.8% 68.6% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 89.3% 10.7%
% dmg as normal 100% 100% 100%
Total hits 746 670 76
Normal hits 746 670 76
% hits by type 100% 89.8% 10.2%
% hits as normal 100% 100% 100%
Average hit 1267 1259 1331
Average normal hit 1267 1259 1331
Max normal hit 2629 2305 2629
Min normal hit 49 49 1314
1 attempt per sec 5 10 76
2 attempts per sec 93 107 0
3 attempts per sec 141 160 0
4 attempts per sec 83 58 0
5 attempts per sec 20 7 0
7 attempts per sec 1 0 0
War using crow footed lance from poair unaugged freezing strike proc with true cold focus
Taladome Vlar in 605s, 757k @1251 --- Taladome 757k
Statistic Total Pierce Hit
Damage 757129 696379 60750
DPS by type 1251.5 1151 100.4
Normal damage 757129 696379 60750
Total Flurries 25
Flurries per minute 2.5
Total attempts 995 871 124
Missed 291 291 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 70.8% 66.6% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 70.8% 66.6% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 92% 8%
% dmg as normal 100% 100% 100%
Total hits 704 580 124
Normal hits 704 580 124
% hits by type 100% 82.4% 17.6%
% hits as normal 100% 100% 100%
Average hit 1075 1200 489
Average normal hit 1075 1200 489
Max normal hit 2052 2052 900
Min normal hit 59 59 450
2 attempts per sec 63 100 0
3 attempts per sec 126 157 0
4 attempts per sec 83 26 0
5 attempts per sec 21 18 0
6 attempts per sec 9 1 0
The point of these parses should not include augs, or take into account that better 2h weps with better dmg dly ratio. The obvious fact here is the amount of misses on both chars.
Monk out of 907 attempts 307 were missed
War out of 871 attempts 291 were missed
When it comes to 2h weapons those misses add up to ALOT of dps lost vs a 1 out of 7 miss of a dual wielder. Of course as I said misses are a natural occurrence but when missing that much I find 2h dps suffering if you consider taking the average hit and multiplying by the missed number 1200 x 291 thats 349k being lost during this 10min fight on war and 1267 x 307 388k dmg on the monk lost.
Min damage hits. Monk
number of hits below 500 damage(including crits) 171 out of 907
number of hits below 300 damage(including crits) 131 out of 907
number of hits below 100 damage(including crits) 82 out of 907
Min damage hits on war pretty much same with 71 below 100 damage out of 871 attempts.
Its my opinion, that if we came up with a way to reduce this number of misses/increase accuracy with 2h weps and increase the min damage, you would get more dps out of a 2h weapon without the need of maxing it at 255 or relying on huge procs to make up for the lack of dps. Procs imo should be a bonus and not something relied to make up for the lack of raw dps. Yes procs are needed, and will be needed even more as we are already at the 255cap and the only way to increase dps is to lower dly to its max or start putting 10k lure nuke procs on 2h weapons.
If need be I can take the time to show the accuracy of 1h weapons but we all know that misses there are practically unnoticeable and do not impact dual wielding dps like it does 2h weps.
Tal
Monk using aged bo staff of trorsmang augs removed only lure proc from wep with true fire focus
Scalezor Vlar in 604s, 945k @1565 --- Scalezor 945k
Statistic Total Crush Hit
Damage 945248 844069 101179
DPS by type 1565 1397.5 167.5
Normal damage 945248 844069 101179
Total attempts 1053 977 76
Missed 307 307 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 70.8% 68.6% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 70.8% 68.6% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 89.3% 10.7%
% dmg as normal 100% 100% 100%
Total hits 746 670 76
Normal hits 746 670 76
% hits by type 100% 89.8% 10.2%
% hits as normal 100% 100% 100%
Average hit 1267 1259 1331
Average normal hit 1267 1259 1331
Max normal hit 2629 2305 2629
Min normal hit 49 49 1314
1 attempt per sec 5 10 76
2 attempts per sec 93 107 0
3 attempts per sec 141 160 0
4 attempts per sec 83 58 0
5 attempts per sec 20 7 0
7 attempts per sec 1 0 0
War using crow footed lance from poair unaugged freezing strike proc with true cold focus
Taladome Vlar in 605s, 757k @1251 --- Taladome 757k
Statistic Total Pierce Hit
Damage 757129 696379 60750
DPS by type 1251.5 1151 100.4
Normal damage 757129 696379 60750
Total Flurries 25
Flurries per minute 2.5
Total attempts 995 871 124
Missed 291 291 0
% Accuracy (vs Miss) 70.8% 66.6% 100%
% Hit (vs Miss + Evade) 70.8% 66.6% 100%
% dmg by type 100% 92% 8%
% dmg as normal 100% 100% 100%
Total hits 704 580 124
Normal hits 704 580 124
% hits by type 100% 82.4% 17.6%
% hits as normal 100% 100% 100%
Average hit 1075 1200 489
Average normal hit 1075 1200 489
Max normal hit 2052 2052 900
Min normal hit 59 59 450
2 attempts per sec 63 100 0
3 attempts per sec 126 157 0
4 attempts per sec 83 26 0
5 attempts per sec 21 18 0
6 attempts per sec 9 1 0
The point of these parses should not include augs, or take into account that better 2h weps with better dmg dly ratio. The obvious fact here is the amount of misses on both chars.
Monk out of 907 attempts 307 were missed
War out of 871 attempts 291 were missed
When it comes to 2h weapons those misses add up to ALOT of dps lost vs a 1 out of 7 miss of a dual wielder. Of course as I said misses are a natural occurrence but when missing that much I find 2h dps suffering if you consider taking the average hit and multiplying by the missed number 1200 x 291 thats 349k being lost during this 10min fight on war and 1267 x 307 388k dmg on the monk lost.
Min damage hits. Monk
number of hits below 500 damage(including crits) 171 out of 907
number of hits below 300 damage(including crits) 131 out of 907
number of hits below 100 damage(including crits) 82 out of 907
Min damage hits on war pretty much same with 71 below 100 damage out of 871 attempts.
Its my opinion, that if we came up with a way to reduce this number of misses/increase accuracy with 2h weps and increase the min damage, you would get more dps out of a 2h weapon without the need of maxing it at 255 or relying on huge procs to make up for the lack of dps. Procs imo should be a bonus and not something relied to make up for the lack of raw dps. Yes procs are needed, and will be needed even more as we are already at the 255cap and the only way to increase dps is to lower dly to its max or start putting 10k lure nuke procs on 2h weapons.
If need be I can take the time to show the accuracy of 1h weapons but we all know that misses there are practically unnoticeable and do not impact dual wielding dps like it does 2h weps.
Tal
Re: 2hnder Balance
Thanks for the parses. Semi related, others in the emu have found/fixed the 255 cap but I am not sure that is something THF staff can do at this time. I am unsure if that was fixed in the emu code trunk itself or was just something some of the other servers like EZ and Loot got from secrets.
The number of misses and the percent of hits landing on the low side of of the damage range is sad to see. It's been like that for awhile and has always bothered me.
As a example, ranger with a doner bow, I never understood how a max archery ranger with the mods from that weapon could bow something and only hit for 48 or 74.
Chalk it up to hitting the target in the toe I guess.
Later today after I get some more sleep and the alcohol runs out I'll parse my 2h weapons for 10min and see what I end up with.
The number of misses and the percent of hits landing on the low side of of the damage range is sad to see. It's been like that for awhile and has always bothered me.
As a example, ranger with a doner bow, I never understood how a max archery ranger with the mods from that weapon could bow something and only hit for 48 or 74.
Chalk it up to hitting the target in the toe I guess.
Later today after I get some more sleep and the alcohol runs out I'll parse my 2h weapons for 10min and see what I end up with.
Re: 2hnder Balance
Thats really the only thing bothering me at the moment is the number of misses. A 2 hander is not a flurry of small hits where a few misses wont matter. Every hit is a potential few k damage. I put this kinda in line with spell resists for casters, if 5 out of 10 of thier spells were resisted their dps would suck because spells normally cast slower than weps are swung and do bigger damage, but those spells resists can be adjusted if need be so that they land most of the time... I do not know if the accuracy of 2h weapons can be. Hopefully a dev will step in and give us their thoughts on the matter. But id bet the bank if it at least accuracy could be addressed even without min damage being addressed 2h raw dps would go up a large amount.
btw could you include your misses in the parse so I can see what your coming up with as well.
Tal
btw could you include your misses in the parse so I can see what your coming up with as well.
Tal
Re: 2hnder Balance
Just got up, been sleeping like a zombie. Going to do a parse on both Jekudo and on Grey since they rotate between 1h and 2h depending on whom I let tank.
Re: 2hnder Balance
Vlar on 10/5/2011 in 501sec
Grey
--- DMG: 1617338 @ 3228 dps
Jekudo
--- DMG: 1314556 @ 2629 dps
Xeru 2h from back on Vlar with only sune buffs, all aura clicked off.
Grey
--- DMG: 1617338 @ 3228 dps
Jekudo
--- DMG: 1314556 @ 2629 dps
Xeru 2h from back on Vlar with only sune buffs, all aura clicked off.
Re: 2hnder Balance
Are those images the detailed information cause they are not loading up for some reason. Could you copy and past the text into the forum pls?
Tal
Tal
-
ChaosSlayer
- Posts: 1693
Re: 2hnder Balance
just wanted to say, they load fine for me.
I see on reports 92.2 vs 91.4 difference in accuracy
If I read the chart correctly, there is practically no difference in hit ratios between the two.
But difference in DPS is 3.2 vs 2.6, which is rather significant.
Of course if simply weaker weapon is being used (ratio wise), then accuracy is not an issue.
I see on reports 92.2 vs 91.4 difference in accuracy
If I read the chart correctly, there is practically no difference in hit ratios between the two.
But difference in DPS is 3.2 vs 2.6, which is rather significant.
Of course if simply weaker weapon is being used (ratio wise), then accuracy is not an issue.
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