2hnder Balance

[Kron]

Here is what your gonna get with any weapon or weapon skill you are unable to increase its accuracy on.


Any skill can suffer this same fate, even some asked if the double and triple special attack aas work properly because I dont see them go off very often even though they should be 100%. They are 100% and go off but if your misses are turned off your not seeing that your additional hits are probably misses. Doesnt matter what aa's you purchase if you have no skill mod or low skill mod for the weapon that aa uses, your probably missing. Most of your epics have no skill mod even 2.0 minus the 2h weapons. If the skills arent coming from somewhere else your kinda borked on accuracy. Everyone suffers from this issue, but point in fact, 2h users suffer the worst.

Tal

so what needs to happen to sort this issue out?

[jsre]

+ to hit from weapon skill needs to be reduced imo

if 2h balance is still behind where it's intended to be, balance it with dam/delay.

[Grey]

Well IMO most of the 2h weapons lack a decent +2hs // +2hb percent mod and other then that slight adjustment to DMG/DLY.
If this is something a dev would put onto test server then Im sure several of us would load up on the test server and parse and give feedback.

[Taladome]

+ to hit from weapon skill needs to be reduced imo

if 2h balance is still behind where it's intended to be, balance it with dam/delay.

I seriously hope your joking lol. Having a 1000/30 delay weapon doesnt mean anything if the weapon never hits. Common sense will tell you that. Have you looked at the clone yet to see how many weapons are missing skill mods? Let me repeate, many weapons have zero skill mods with no other way to obtain those mods? As I stated before I do not use 2h weapons personally but I know many that do and I am sure they would like this fixed.

Your idea to simply raise damage and delay to make up for lack of accuracy just doesnt make much sense, especially from a dev stand point because your dealing with hundreds of weapons updating damage and delay where as your dealing with a few updating skill mods or even adding skill mods to diff augs etc. Please give us something more than + to hit from weapon skill needs to be reduced imo and back it up with some parses and definitive reasoning.


Tal

[Mien]

Some numbers from a T2-geared 'zerker. All parses are 600 seconds (+/- 3 seconds, depending on when I turned off autoattack), autoattack only, since we're only really concerned about the miss rate, and it was easy to gain the numbers while AFK that way.

webtools/magelo/character.php?char=Mien

Parse one, every mod at my disposal on.
Mien -vs- Vlad: -- DMG: 962829 -- DPS: 1597 -- Scaled: 1597 -- Slash: 868479 -- Hit: 94350 -- Non-crit rate: 41.2% -- crit rate: 58.8% -- Attempts: 1343 -- Hits: 1120 -- Missed: 223 -- Accuracy: 83.4% -- Avg Hit: 859 -- Max hit: 1993 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse two, removed +2HS mod (which is on both sleeves and gloves, replaced them with Glowing Chain from SMT to keep other stats relatively equal).
Mien -vs- Vlad: -- DMG: 816845 -- DPS: 1361 -- Scaled: 1361 -- Slash: 725295 -- Hit: 91550 -- Non-crit rate: 43.1% -- crit rate: 56.9% -- Attempts: 1333 -- Hits: 1036 -- Missed: 297 -- Accuracy: 77.7% -- Avg Hit: 788 -- Max hit: 1993 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse three, replaced +2HS mod, removed +8% Offense (just to see what difference it might make).
Mien -vs- Vlad: -- DMG: 979145 -- DPS: 1629 -- Scaled: 1629 -- Slash: 883520 -- Hit: 95625 -- Non-crit rate: 40.2% -- crit rate: 59.8% -- Attempts: 1348 -- Hits: 1169 -- Missed: 179 -- Accuracy: 86.7% -- Avg Hit: 837 -- Max hit: 1993 -- DMG to PC: 0

~1350 attempts seems like a reasonable amount of swings to get things to average out, but the third parse wound up with a significantly better rate of both crit and accuracy. Depending on which number one likes better, or splitting the difference between them, no 2HS mod results in a drop in accuracy of between 6 and 9% at this stage of progression.

[jsre]

Sure I am serious..

For starters, 33% misses is not 'never hits'. You've said that a few times now and I put it down to a dry sense of humour, but it's starting to sound like you're serious

Secondly, not sure if you realise this or if maybe I'm misinterpreting your your posts, but 1H weapons without skill mods face exactly the same damage "issue" as 2H weapons without skill mods. a 33% miss rate has exactly the same impact on DPS from 1H as it does for a 2H.

I've said that from a design perspective, you should expect to see 2H and 1H weapons have the same or similar skill mods at each tier. Skill mods on donators are now 25%.

Parsing my donator SK with 100 accuracy (accuracy gives +1% per 10 chance to hit) shows an 86.4% chance to hit. Add another 50 accuracy (to reach cap) and that will be 91.4%. Skill mod of +25% is adding around 25% (I lose 26.1% using a 1h sword from Paludal, and 1.5% of that comes from the 15 accuracy on donator).

Think about that for a sec. 91.4% hit rate.

There is a 5% chance to miss whatever your accuracy or skill mods, which means anyone with 150 accuracy would be hit capped at 95% if they have a +28 or +29% weapon skill mod.

How many tiers do you think that will take? 1? 2 maybe? Once that happens there's one less lever dev's will have to play with, and further skill mods with make zero difference to dps unless they want to start adding new damage tables.

[Taladome]

Some numbers from a T2-geared 'zerker. All parses are 600 seconds (+/- 3 seconds, depending on when I turned off autoattack), autoattack only, since we're only really concerned about the miss rate, and it was easy to gain the numbers while AFK that way.

webtools/magelo/character.php?char=Mien

Parse one, every mod at my disposal on.
Mien -vs- Vlad: -- DMG: 962829 -- DPS: 1597 -- Scaled: 1597 -- Slash: 868479 -- Hit: 94350 -- Non-crit rate: 41.2% -- crit rate: 58.8% -- Attempts: 1343 -- Hits: 1120 -- Missed: 223 -- Accuracy: 83.4% -- Avg Hit: 859 -- Max hit: 1993 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse two, removed +2HS mod (which is on both sleeves and gloves, replaced them with Glowing Chain from SMT to keep other stats relatively equal).
Mien -vs- Vlad: -- DMG: 816845 -- DPS: 1361 -- Scaled: 1361 -- Slash: 725295 -- Hit: 91550 -- Non-crit rate: 43.1% -- crit rate: 56.9% -- Attempts: 1333 -- Hits: 1036 -- Missed: 297 -- Accuracy: 77.7% -- Avg Hit: 788 -- Max hit: 1993 -- DMG to PC: 0

Parse three, replaced +2HS mod, removed +8% Offense (just to see what difference it might make).
Mien -vs- Vlad: -- DMG: 979145 -- DPS: 1629 -- Scaled: 1629 -- Slash: 883520 -- Hit: 95625 -- Non-crit rate: 40.2% -- crit rate: 59.8% -- Attempts: 1348 -- Hits: 1169 -- Missed: 179 -- Accuracy: 86.7% -- Avg Hit: 837 -- Max hit: 1993 -- DMG to PC: 0

~1350 attempts seems like a reasonable amount of swings to get things to average out, but the third parse wound up with a significantly better rate of both crit and accuracy. Depending on which number one likes better, or splitting the difference between them, no 2HS mod results in a drop in accuracy of between 6 and 9% at this stage of progression.

I dont play a zerker could you tell us what your max 2hb 2hs skill is without any mods on.
My war is 270
Monk is 275
No matter how many times I parse I get within +-1% not sure if zerkers have higher max base skills for 2h weps maybe do.

Secondly, not sure if you realise this or if maybe I'm misinterpreting your your posts, but 1H weapons without skill mods face exactly the same damage "issue" as 2H weapons without skill mods. a 33% miss rate has exactly the same impact on DPS from 1H as it does for a 2H.

Yes skill mods impact dps on both 1h and 2h of course, but parse yourself and un modded duel wielder and an un modded 2h the duel wielder same damage weapons see who wins.

Nice little fun fact I discovered, ancient plate boots have a 19% 1hblunt mod that is not shown lol not sure if ancient leather have as well could someone confirm?


Case in point.. if your gonna say leave mods alone ok, see if you can get the devs to up the damage lower the delay on every 2h item in game. What about those who have no mods at all? Monks cant slash, what if they want to use 2hb? Only a couple weapons in game have the skill. No skill and you get the screenshot like I posted<poor monks who like 2hb weps>. Why even have 2hpierce weapons drop if no class has a skill for it or no mods from any other items to increase. Whos gonna use a 2h weapon in tier 5 with 66% accuracy? Waste of loot table space? Your saying do not raise skill mods when there are some skills with few or NO items available to increase them at all...

Ugh I dunno what else to say lol, Your parsing a 1h donator weapon when we are talking about lack of mods on items dropped or quested in the game for people who use 2h weapons. If your saying sks and pallies dps sucks using 1h and shield I agree and said earlier that is another topic. Id rather ask the devs to ensure there is at least a skill mod on an aug or item for each tier rather than ask them to redo 1500 weapons damage and delay to make up for lack of one.


Tal

[ChaosSlayer]

mathematically speaking, a weapon with 50% accuracy will come equal in terms of dps with a weapon of 100% accuracy, given its has 2x the damage output per hit, and as number of swing attempts approaches infinity

So yeah, you can have a 2h with lower hit chance given it has much greater dmg output ratio to compensate, and your fights are long enough.

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Oh yeah, on the subject of +skill mods.
This is maybe too late to redo all the items now, but for the FUTURE, i would recommend to place +skill mobs on ARMOR, rather than on weapons.
So if your bracer will have +10% to 2hs, it will apply to ANY 2hs you try to use, not just a specific one, so when you looking to upgrade, you won't be concerned with possibility of a mod not being on the next weapon.
Its same approach as having your HASTE bonus on armor item, rather than on weapon itself

[Mien]

Base is 305 for both 2HS and 2HB according to #myskills, 341 total with the +12% 2HS mod on.

SK shows 280 for those values, though I haven't bothered to parse her, since I don't have a +2HS mod item for her yet. Suppose I could, just to get a baseline, if desired.

[jsre]

Once again, I agree that 2H weapons should have similar weapon skill mods to their 1H counterparts in each tier. Or as Chaos points out, put it on the armour.

If the amount of updates required is your main concern with reducing +hit from +weaponskill, never fear - there is a global parameter for +tohit from skill mods. So it's only one update.

It's also fairly easy to update items in bulk if they all share a common characteristic.