2hnder Balance

[Mien]

Jsre, I have only one quibble, and it's that triple attack is based off of successfully double attacking, not successfully dual-wielding. AAs like Punishing Blade add a chance for an extra attack outside of the DA/TA model, at least according to the Live devs from years ago. It works functionally the same, but it causes the chance to TA on a successful double to seem artificially lower for the classes that get the AA and the chance to triple. (I think this is limited to War/Mnk/'zerker, though I could be mistaken.)

Functionally, a lot (maybe all, but I didn't pay as much attention back in the day) of classes eventually got TA via skill, in addition to the base chance some classes had received hard-coded earlier on in the game. This would certainly help with the output of flurry, which is currently adding 1-2 flurries per minute (between 1-4 extra swings per minute - recall that the AA investment on this is 18 just for the base AA set, I forget what the second set costs. Sure, it's more damage, but I'd forgotten that it was so underwhelming before TA skill was added to the game.)

The idea of putting a high -% dual wield mod on a warrior sword-and-board weapon hadn't occurred to me, and it probably should have. Certainly an intriguing possibility, and one that argues that weapon skill mods should probably be somewhere other than on weapons the majority of the time, unless you can functionally have multiple %-based mods on the same item work. (Not sure if this is the case.)

There are two ways to increase weapon minimum damage now, as I understand the underlying mechanics: First, you can increase weapon damage bonus for a given delay (primarily works for twohanders, though it could probably be made to work for 1H as well). Second, you can add a minimum damage all skills mod. The first option will also inflate mid- and top-end damage to the extent you increase the number used for the damage bonus. The second option will only effect minimal hits, and bring them up to some multiplied value. To wit: My 'zerker, currently with no +minimum damage all skills mod, will min hit for 48. +MDAS 50% would raise this to 72 as a minimum hit. (It's possible this isn't how math works in Verant/SoE's world, but finding out such oddities is what a test server is for. heheh) So, to turn those minimum hits into essentially 150s, a +MDAS mod of +200% would be needed (roughly, that should actually equate to 48*3, or 144).

[ChaosSlayer]

imho, the best starting approach to "the fixing" is to remove hard coded damage bonus all together.
It will make balancing of different speed/hands weapons much easier

[jsre]

I have only one quibble, and it's that triple attack is based off of successfully double attacking, not successfully dual-wielding.

Good pickup, you're right.. I meant double attack. Just checked and triple is monk, warrior, ranger, zerker.

Everything you've said looks accurate without digging through code. Damage bonus code for 2H's is ponderous but efficient. And I'm inclined to agree with Chaos that removing it solves a bunch of issues, unfortunately its fairly entrenched in both EQ culture and AA's (e.g. sinister strikes aa). You could easily rewrite the code so that it's a factor of delay, but a) it would have performance implications (though minor) and b) I don't think it would be welcomed in open source, as the current values are intended to emulate live.

[Kron]

Insightful conversation guys

So not knowing really knowing the technical aspects here, are we saying a raising of the minimum damage for all 2hs could be a workable solution that the GMs could look into?

Just conscious that we could be discussing this for a long time!

[ChaosSlayer]

Everything you've said looks accurate without digging through code. Damage bonus code for 2H's is ponderous but efficient. And I'm inclined to agree with Chaos that removing it solves a bunch of issues, unfortunately its fairly entrenched in both EQ culture and AA's (e.g. sinister strikes aa). You could easily rewrite the code so that it's a factor of delay, but a) it would have performance implications (though minor) and b) I don't think it would be welcomed in open source, as the current values are intended to emulate live.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "entrenched " in culture
I am also not certain that any AAs actually work directly with damage bonuses. Could you post detail descriptions of those AAs?

Also, removing DB is very simple - there is a small section in source code file which can simply be commented out and all DB become 0s.
With Db gone, you can then start balancing/evaluating weapons by simply looking at their stats.

As far as min hit goes (with DB gone), it could be set to something simple as weapon dmg base *K, where K is your level modifier, so its not static (like all 1h get +12, which instantly makes faster weapons better), and weapons with higher dmg (and most likely higher dly) will get greater bonus, which is logical).

Exact formula could be something like Dmg Base * (level*0.05)
so at lev 70 your min hit with a base dmg 50 weapon is: 50*70*0.05= 175
For a 2h with base dmg 100, this will become 350 min dmg etc

The numbers/formulas above are theoretical

[jsre]

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "entrenched " in culture

There was some OOC discussion on another server the other day about whether it was better for DPS to use a lammy/wyrmslayer with the lammy in main or offhand. Wyrmslayer has a higher ratio. Of course most people said lammy main, but one person said (correctly) wyrmslayer in the main if you are low enough level to not get a damage bonus. This was met with much criticism, and one person went so far as to say 'faster weapon in mainhand is EQ common sense'. So removing it is pretty radical IMO. I mean sure you can do it but it's one of those EQisms that's been around forever.

Sinister strikes is actually the only AA I was thinking of.. entrenched was the wrong word I know it just adds a little dam to offhand, but you'd probably want to change it to something that affected both hands.


Kron - As far as how to address - I stand by my post with the parses which shows DPS for 2H with equal ratios is a touch higher than dual wield. Basically, decide where you want 2H DPS to be, even out the +skill bonuses, and adjust ratios accordingly.

[ChaosSlayer]

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "entrenched " in culture

There was some OOC discussion on another server the other day about whether it was better for DPS to use a lammy/wyrmslayer with the lammy in main or offhand. Wyrmslayer has a higher ratio. Of course most people said lammy main, but one person said (correctly) wyrmslayer in the main if you are low enough level to not get a damage bonus. This was met with much criticism, and one person went so far as to say 'faster weapon in mainhand is EQ common sense'. So removing it is pretty radical IMO. I mean sure you can do it but it's one of those EQisms that's been around forever.

Sinister strikes is actually the only AA I was thinking of.. entrenched was the wrong word I know it just adds a little dam to offhand, but you'd probably want to change it to something that affected both hands.

well, we don't really care what those other people, who don't play on THF, think
Since any changes THF devs will undertake, only apply to THF anyway. We already have many features that are not typical for classic gameplay, and only a handful of player actually worry about exactly HOW all the formulas work behind the screen, as long as they satisfied with their char performance output

[jsre]

Tell you what, I'll use your formula and re parse

[Grey]

Would love some more parses, but only if they are conducted on THF.

[Shaitan]

Oh so many words. Its hurting my brain. Just kill!