HA! Gotcha with a pre-emptive strike there Rinze!
I can quad for a max of 874k on my rogue and he's fairly decked out so not the typical rogue.
Overall, his dps is in line with Longfeathers the ranger over the course of an entire fight on a boss mob that's rooted so that Rungar cannot gain agro on. On an unrooted mob, I pull agro and Longfeathers laughs at me while doing similar damage.
The bard pushes around 100k sustainable DPS with his BP and donor weaps / augs.
The Ranger pushes around 120k sustainable DPS with his BP and donor weaps / augs.
The Rogue pushes around 120k sustainable DPS with his BP and donor weaps / augs.
The rogue is typically around 40k and burst up to 500k for the 1 minute of the BP and then back down to 40k, which is why he's overall around 120k dps sustained.
Bard isn't really a dps class atm, so i'm pretty happy that he can sustain 100k by clicking his BP every 3 mins.
-Warbeat
Rogue Donor BP
Re: Rogue Donor BP
rinze wrote:I love this part lol.Chiron is not a boxed guild. We limit each player to 3 characters per raid. We may be utilizing our characters more so than a scripted boxed guild.
Rogues are borderline overpowered right now, their damage with the donor bp is over the top for sure. Donor BP's have all but trivialized the current content.
You also have not posted any numbers either for your rogue as to why he is pulling aggro. Maybe it's because he is popping quad 1.5m backstabs? lol. Dev's need to take a look at the rogue damage right now it is especially high on T8 mobs, rogue pretty much doubled my monk last time I gave a crap to look at the dps meter. That is without the Donor BP mind you.Like I said in the beginning. I believe that my rogue's gear and buff combination puts him in a different category than your rogues because I do not see how your tanks are not having issues generating enough threat to satisfy someone that actually plays the rogue as a main or secondary character. I meant no slight in saying so, I just analyzed the numbers and they're not adding up.
Why is your rogue in a different category? I don't get it. I have raided with yaegor just playing his rogue plenty of times. I am not quite understanding this comparison you are still having between people who play more then 3 toons at times is. Are you saying it's is impossible to fathom that someone else can play a rogue at your level or something?
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that I played a rogue at another level. I said that my GEAR AND BUFF COMBINATION was probably better on average. My main is Warbeat. Clicking both donor bard swords, Bard 2.0 epic and Bard T8 evolved chest while playing bard songs creates a perfect storm of dps. There may be another rogue with a donor bard following them around 24/7 but I don't know of any myself. Buffs in this case are the only "unknown" variable so I'm thinking that it has something to do with the extreme hate generation.
Warbeat
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Before this thread gets locked... 
The thread starts out with the request that devs look into rogue hate generation because it has reached critical mass when the donor BP is used.
The replies seem to be to the tune of "rogue hate hasn't been an issue for us, perhaps your tanks' hate generation is low?"
That dwindled into something less-than-productive. Having read every word posted here, I *have* heard tale of rogue hate being difficult to manage prior to this post. I haven't experienced it personally. Perhaps... don't change the donor BP, but instead retune the rogue class's natural evade ability (as was mentioned by another poster here).
My understanding is:
I rogue evading during combat experiences...
[i] If not at the top of the hate list, and the rogue's total hate > 500 points: evade = 500 point hate reduction.
[ii] If not at the top of the hate list, total hate < 500 points: evade = hate set to 1 point.
[iii] If at the top of the hate list, mid-point 2nd and 3rd highest on the hate list is > 500 points below rogue's position: Hate set to that mid point between #2 and #3.
[iv] If at the top of hate list, mid-point 2nd and 3rd highest on the hate list is < 500 points below rogue's position below rogue's position AND total hate > 500: evade = 500 point hate reduction.
[v] If at the top of hate list, mid-point of #2 and #3 person on list is < 500 points below rogue's position AND total hate < 500: evade = hate set to 1 point.
I don't want to trivialize hate management for rogues, but perhaps a backstab calculation can be made serverside at the time of evade, and the evade hate reduction can be based off of that. (i.e. evade results in a reduction of hate = (some constant)*max backstab dmg OR 500, whichever is greater.)
The thread starts out with the request that devs look into rogue hate generation because it has reached critical mass when the donor BP is used.
The replies seem to be to the tune of "rogue hate hasn't been an issue for us, perhaps your tanks' hate generation is low?"
That dwindled into something less-than-productive. Having read every word posted here, I *have* heard tale of rogue hate being difficult to manage prior to this post. I haven't experienced it personally. Perhaps... don't change the donor BP, but instead retune the rogue class's natural evade ability (as was mentioned by another poster here).
My understanding is:
I rogue evading during combat experiences...
[i] If not at the top of the hate list, and the rogue's total hate > 500 points: evade = 500 point hate reduction.
[ii] If not at the top of the hate list, total hate < 500 points: evade = hate set to 1 point.
[iii] If at the top of the hate list, mid-point 2nd and 3rd highest on the hate list is > 500 points below rogue's position: Hate set to that mid point between #2 and #3.
[iv] If at the top of hate list, mid-point 2nd and 3rd highest on the hate list is < 500 points below rogue's position below rogue's position AND total hate > 500: evade = 500 point hate reduction.
[v] If at the top of hate list, mid-point of #2 and #3 person on list is < 500 points below rogue's position AND total hate < 500: evade = hate set to 1 point.
I don't want to trivialize hate management for rogues, but perhaps a backstab calculation can be made serverside at the time of evade, and the evade hate reduction can be based off of that. (i.e. evade results in a reduction of hate = (some constant)*max backstab dmg OR 500, whichever is greater.)
Re: Rogue Donor BP
If Micah wouldn't be semi afk atm the thread would be locked by now.
Please guys, keep the discussion constructive and be respectful to each other.
Please guys, keep the discussion constructive and be respectful to each other.
Re: Rogue Donor BP
I'm pretty sure rogues' backstab generate more hate than berzerkers' frenzy and monks' flying kick. It seems I get more hate than one of them doing more DPS than I do. That could be one reason?
So much hate for rogues...
To keep it constructive, as the game's best class it's normal to get more attention ans hate (fame, fashion gnomes' clothes, jealousy, etc.) Also to prove other people we're top DPS we need to steal aggro often, and even while engagin before the main tank and using full burst from the very beginning it's hard to keep aggro for a long time. Considering you have to backstab and at the same time write taunts in chat to the tank loosing aggro to you, it could be necessary to acquire some aggro augments and hate focus...
/evade
So much hate for rogues...
To keep it constructive, as the game's best class it's normal to get more attention ans hate (fame, fashion gnomes' clothes, jealousy, etc.) Also to prove other people we're top DPS we need to steal aggro often, and even while engagin before the main tank and using full burst from the very beginning it's hard to keep aggro for a long time. Considering you have to backstab and at the same time write taunts in chat to the tank loosing aggro to you, it could be necessary to acquire some aggro augments and hate focus...
/evade
Re: Rogue Donor BP
A fix for now could be to up the aggro reduction of the abilities already available to the Rogue. Feint of Shadow Rk I-III and Deep Shadows Rk. I-III could be a short term solution to the problem. Of course the Dev's would also have to agree that there is a problem. Either way something needs to be done, we can't have Ranger's laughing at anyone! lol
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Maybe it's not a problem. Maybe it's not a god-given right to be able to donor stack everything for ridiculous trivializing dps without the consequence of pulling agro? Just a thought...
-
Stickybuds
- Posts: 883
Re: Rogue Donor BP
i tend to agree with lpdfan...the donor bp gives you way way more dps than ever aviable before and through any other in game means. What you do with all that crazy dmg is up to you.
While i understand comparing it to the wiz bp that reduces hate to 1 while active, take a closer look at the wiz bp compared to the melee bps. wiz only last for 8 spells. I think i read eariler one of yall saying you can get like 12 backstabs off during the duration of the bp. but thats just backstabs, thats not including the thousands and thousands of dmg you are doing every swing on top of that. Wizards also have no way of dropping agro other than dieing. While yall say rogues evade and other jolt type skills need a boost, you do at least have skills to drop agro where the wiz just has ranger gate.
I dont think any changes should be made at all to the bp. I also dont think in game spells and skills should be adjusted to compensate for the agro caused by using donor items. I'm not against donating or donor gear, but it should not influence the balancing of the rest of the game. The bps do T9 dmg this is true, and this makes all content below that really easy when using them. But no one is forcing you to use them either.
just my 2 cents. please be nice to each other =)
Regards,
Sticky
While i understand comparing it to the wiz bp that reduces hate to 1 while active, take a closer look at the wiz bp compared to the melee bps. wiz only last for 8 spells. I think i read eariler one of yall saying you can get like 12 backstabs off during the duration of the bp. but thats just backstabs, thats not including the thousands and thousands of dmg you are doing every swing on top of that. Wizards also have no way of dropping agro other than dieing. While yall say rogues evade and other jolt type skills need a boost, you do at least have skills to drop agro where the wiz just has ranger gate.
I dont think any changes should be made at all to the bp. I also dont think in game spells and skills should be adjusted to compensate for the agro caused by using donor items. I'm not against donating or donor gear, but it should not influence the balancing of the rest of the game. The bps do T9 dmg this is true, and this makes all content below that really easy when using them. But no one is forcing you to use them either.
just my 2 cents. please be nice to each other =)
Regards,
Sticky
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Sticky and lpdfan,
The donor BP is unusable. It's not that it's difficult to manage. Please refer to my post about hate generation above. It's a long read.
The rogue has a few hate mitigation abilities:
1) The evade macro which is where you turn off attack during combat, hit hide, and re-attack the target.
2) Clickable items that reduce hate.
3) Escape ability, similar to Fading Memories but usable every 40 mins or so.
Problems with each:
1) The evade macro used to mitigate similar hate when used with backstab. If used every time it pops, rogues would rarely get agro. I don't think that this ability has been able to keep up with our tier'd progressions.
2) I have the hate reducing dagger from T7 that's an instant clicky. It is clickable Ancient greater concussion. It's the best I have found in the game and it is capable of reducing hate by 600. I would have to click it 408 times to mitigate 1 backstab.
3) Escape drops the rogue off the list, but the rogue is back at the top within 2 or 3 backstabs.
3.5 million damage is an unmanageable amount of hate. Debuffing myself or deleting my augs isn't fair to the amount of work I've put into my character. Donors are a part of this server.
I'm not some rogue complaining about going "all out". I cannot use my rogue's donor BP. I'd be greatful if rogues damage was decreased in lue of reduced hate.
Aegos and I were discussing the problem in /tells and thought that a change to the evade macro (#1) would be most in line with rogue progression on the server.
Thanks for the constructive critisism.
Sincerely,
Warbeat
The donor BP is unusable. It's not that it's difficult to manage. Please refer to my post about hate generation above. It's a long read.
The rogue has a few hate mitigation abilities:
1) The evade macro which is where you turn off attack during combat, hit hide, and re-attack the target.
2) Clickable items that reduce hate.
3) Escape ability, similar to Fading Memories but usable every 40 mins or so.
Problems with each:
1) The evade macro used to mitigate similar hate when used with backstab. If used every time it pops, rogues would rarely get agro. I don't think that this ability has been able to keep up with our tier'd progressions.
2) I have the hate reducing dagger from T7 that's an instant clicky. It is clickable Ancient greater concussion. It's the best I have found in the game and it is capable of reducing hate by 600. I would have to click it 408 times to mitigate 1 backstab.
3) Escape drops the rogue off the list, but the rogue is back at the top within 2 or 3 backstabs.
3.5 million damage is an unmanageable amount of hate. Debuffing myself or deleting my augs isn't fair to the amount of work I've put into my character. Donors are a part of this server.
I'm not some rogue complaining about going "all out". I cannot use my rogue's donor BP. I'd be greatful if rogues damage was decreased in lue of reduced hate.
Aegos and I were discussing the problem in /tells and thought that a change to the evade macro (#1) would be most in line with rogue progression on the server.
Thanks for the constructive critisism.
Sincerely,
Warbeat
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