Rogue Donor BP

[Melkor]

I take that back, the real tragedy is that Longfeathers was mentioned as being good dps. Jk buddy! <3

[Noren]

I didn't mean to sound snarky. I avoided posting my backstab numbers to keep it from looking like a "look at me!" post, but since I failed, we'll use numbers to explain the problem that I'm seeing.

We know the hate generated by the Shield of Burgerz. It's 6000 hate according to Allaclone.

Therefore, I set up a test. It has it's faults, but it illustrates my point. I tested this on multiple bosses in multiple raid tiers and found the hate generation to damage ratio to be similar across most zones.

I asked Kallisto to pull a raid mob with her Shield of the Burgerz and put her back to the mob, with only her donor shield to save her. Only hate she generated to the mob was 6k hate via the shield, or close to it.

Then, I moved behind the mob with the worst dagger in my bank. Point was, I wanted to get the least amount of backstab damage necessary to turn the mob which she had generated 6k hate upon. Granted, there are other variables that go into mob hate, but this is enough to show my point imo.

What I found was that roughly 40k backstab damage was near equivalent to 6k hate.

Using this info, I calculate a theoretical max backstab damage's hate generation. We'll keep it in thousands to keep it simple. 3000k damage would be roughly equivalent to 450k hate. If the tank used only Shield of the Burgurz to gain hate, it would take 75 clicks, each taking 2 seconds to cast which means it would take 2.5 minutes to counter 1 backstab.

Because Rungar can backstab for 3.5 million maximum damage, he can potentially generate a theoretical maximum of 90k hate per second. If he sits out half the fight, his hate generation is half, so 45k hate per second. If he sits out 3/4 the fight, his hate generation is 22.5k hate per second. Most any tank will have a problem outputting even 22.5k hate per second.

Now on average with raid buffs, Rungar only does about half his theoretical maximum hate. That means he can generate about 45k hate per second. So by purchasing this donor BP, Rungar needs to sit out for 3/4 of the fight so that the tanks only need to generate 11k hate per second. The Shield of the Burgerz is 6k hate per 2 seconds, so 3k hate per second. Where will they get the other 8k hate? Hopefully from procs off the donor aug which are 1k hate each unmodified.

I've never tested hate numbers on THF, and I really like your approach. Only problem I see is the calculations may have a few more factors (read http://guidescroll.com/2012/03/everquest-tank-guide/ for more info) to consider.

For starters, the Shield of the Burgerz should be subject to a hate modifier from any worn focus. Kallisto should see a 40% global modifier on hate. Divine Calling Rk. I (assuming it bypasses the 150 hate hard cap on the first attack, and I think it does) should generate 6000*1.4 + 825*1.4 + n (where n is some crazy calculation for stun hate). That's 8400 + 1155 + n = 9555 + n hate. Never more, never less if I understand things correctly.

My advice is to retest several times and do the following:
[1] Have the rogue aggro by proximity.
[2] Have the first strike be a melee swing (guaranteed 150 aggro because the rogue's weapon dmg is so high) and immediately cease attacking and turn around. Calculate any triple attacks/procs based off of the weapon's base dmg and figure out your exact hate.
[3] Have the pally use Divine Calling Rk. I once.

At this point the pally should be at exactly 9705 hate. The rogue at, of course, whatever value you calculated.

[4] The pally should be several thousand hate ahead now.
[5] Have the pally use Divine Calling Rk. I say... 20 or 30 times. Basically 1 minute.
[6] Assuming you used that spell 29 more times to reach 30 casts... you are now at 291150 hate on the pally.
[7] Now have the rogue backstab, and only backstab until aggro is taken.
[8] Count the number of backstabs and the net dmg from them.

Iterate as many times as you can bear!

What I'm looking for is to see if aggro is taken after a certain net dmg is reach or after a fixed number of backstabs each time.

I'm curious to know if backstab hate generation is the same for each backstab, regardless of hit/miss/max/min. I theorize that backstabs generate a fixed amount of hate that is calculated from the weapon dmg and the discipline modifier, and that (like auto attack and spells) doesn't matter if it hits the target or crits.

Good stuff. Wish I knew how it all worked.

[aldred]

So my experience in raids, I rarely take aggro over the tanks in my guild:

- Chrom
- Snorks
- Wardar
- Sianette
- Torkrol

Even a better geared monk in my guild can hold aggro over me, so to me it looks fine.

Also, I never use any hate reduction items/augments, no hide/sneak in battle, no disc that lower aggro, no evade -> I go for straight DPS all the fight, using them at start so they can refresh their timer at the end of the fight (for +10mins events). I might get aggro soemtimes but tanks do his stuff and get it back quick.

Also the rogues seems to be in line with other pure dps classes, I feel we're even a bit less good as we are forced to be in the back to use our full potential. And 3.5mio, it's more like 1.8mio as we never do 4xmax dmg... and that is with full debuff and buffs.

[Melkor]

I remember we had an SK in our guild a while ago, forget his name, his gear wasn't very good. But, he could pull aggro in a heartbeat off of any of our super tanks without even trying. He would put attack on and not long after he would gank aggro off of the tank who has been hitting the boss/building aggro for several minutes. He never hit taunt, never clicked a fevarn shield, didn't have donor legs, just swung his weapon. We eventually came to the conclusion his character was bugged and we had him sit out fights. Never figured out what it was that made him full aggro so easily. But, it's possible your rogue suffers from the same affliction.

[Beatboxin]

It was Ggan! Bordamere's SK and back then IIRC he didn't have the legs or tank donor aug but man to this day I still don't know what that lil gnome was doing but he would always pull agro even with just attack on it was so weird! lmfao I'll never forget that we were all in vent liek wtf LOL

[aldred]

He is gnome? So it's normal, we are attention wore

[techspec6]

Noren,

During my first test, I was using my rogue 2.0 dagger without augs at it's base damage in the 40s and I remained unbuffed. I had not factored in her global modifier on hate. I still have the numbers from the previous trials. I'll rework the numbers and post the results later.

Another factor that wasn't considered was the occational backstab that generates very little hate due to something about "performing with such grace, the mob doesn't know what hit them." I'll have to watch for those in my next set of test.

I can say that with only using backstab, sometimes it took 4 or 5 backstabs and other times it took 15, though the damage was always around 43k. I kept testing over and over to see what the least amount of backstab damage had to be done in order to pull agro from her shield. After I pulled agro, I used the bard to CoH the rogue and pally, rinse and repeat. It was fun to me, but she wasn't as excited about being dragged around and beaten on.

There are many factors that are not accounted for in this simple test. I've heard that time is possibly a factor (dps burst) and I'm sure there are several factors that we're not privy to. It was only to give an illustration of how far gone my rogues hate generation is. Even calculating the numbers at 9555 instead of 6000, my hate generation is still off the charts.

At this point, I can conclude that hate generation from backstabs is not the same for every backstab. It is definitly tied into the damage done per backstab.

One other thing, Noren. If you'd like to help out with some of the test, I'd appreciate the assistance. Kallisto is a finicky lady. I, on the other hand, love working with game mechanics. There are several open zones we could test within.

Thanks,
Warbeat

[Snorks]

So my experience in raids, I rarely take aggro over the tanks in my guild:

- Chrom
- Snorks
- Wardar
- Sianette
- Torkrol

Even a better geared monk in my guild can hold aggro over me, so to me it looks fine.

Also, I never use any hate reduction items/augments, no hide/sneak in battle, no disc that lower aggro, no evade -> I go for straight DPS all the fight, using them at start so they can refresh their timer at the end of the fight (for +10mins events). I might get aggro soemtimes but tanks do his stuff and get it back quick.

Also the rogues seems to be in line with other pure dps classes, I feel we're even a bit less good as we are forced to be in the back to use our full potential. And 3.5mio, it's more like 1.8mio as we never do 4xmax dmg... and that is with full debuff and buffs.

I am Famous! I only have issues with a certain Zerker on aggro (Brekells) ! but then when dps classes are putting out that sheer amount of damage there has to be some risk in involved! It makes it more fun.

I am still undecided on Rogue damage augmentation arrangement, I prefer using them in separate weapons, but I have no Lillus Distillers left to sort this issue out! or to parse the difference.

[Firenze]

Distillers are sold for 100 AAs , thats like 35min of Ldons you lazy knight

[Locis]

Aggro has always been different on this server, sometime by zone or by bot. In EQ live hate is calculated by using the base damage only which made it easier to code and keep track of.

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7760

Generating Hate: the numbers behind the sparkles.

1. DD spells give 1 point of hate per 1 point of *base* damage - ie, the number listed in the spell. Bonus damage from focus effects/mods do NOT cause additional hate. bonus damage from critical hits do NOT cause additional hate (this includes procs).

Changed on THF.....

http://www.thehiddenforest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7945&p=46014&hilit=wizard+aggro#p46014

As for the hate issues, the majority of spells were having their hate generation overwritten by a default value which was way lower than it should have been. I noticed this awhile back and got around to fixing it a few updates ago. Pretty much DD spells will generate aggro correctly now and will not be overwritten by the lower default value. What this means is that player (DD casters in specific) are going to have to manage their aggro a lot better now than before. Throw in a random concussion type spell to your spell line up and you will be fine.

I'm curious how the melee hate is calculated on THF and if it was changed similar to spell damage, on live it seems the damage done is irrelevant.

5. Melee gives a set amount of hate *per swing* regardless of whether you hit, miss, are dodged, parried, riposted, how much you hit for, and whether you get a critical hit (ie, how much damage you do per hit, and even if you hit at all, means nothing - it's a set amount of hate per swing).