I've found something that I hesitate to call a "problem"... though tanks and rez'rs would probably disagree. In the lower tiers, this BP is second to none with donor items for a rogue. My rogue, Rungar, is having some serious issues though. He is capable of doing T9 damage but incapable of ridding himself of T9 aggro. Whenever I get a lucky backstab (or unlucky according to whom you ask) he has the mobs attention until a tank can successfully taunt, assuming his escape key (35m reuse) is not up. No amount of ducking out of combat (attack off, hide, attack on) or clicking his "Vampiric Fang of Blood" with Ancient Greater Concussion helps. I've clicked it 30+ times without the tank getting aggro. Only thing that gets agro for the tank is another donor BP with agro properties or taunt.
I see that many of the other dps BPs have some sort of agro reduction or have less agro natively in the case of ranged dps. Is there anything you guys can do to allow my rogue not to tank till he dies after clicking his BP at least until T9 is released?
Thanks,
Warbeat
aka Rungar
aka Jason
Rogue Donor BP
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Hi,
We don't have any problem in the guild with the tank loosing aggro over donor bp rogue, monk, zerk whatever (only SK can keep aggro sometimes). Some tanks have donor bp and some like me don't and still, the only problem we may have is if the mob is rooted and tank is a bit too far compared to others, that's it.
Reason why you take over aggro, it seems, is because the donor bp allows you to do massive huge destructive dps. You can't complain lol
Taking aggro over someone else is the risk you gotta take for using the bp.
What is your tank using as clickies / weapons / anger focus / disc ? You should look into that direction, this is a problem of aggro management, on warrior's side, or on both you / him's sides.
Nevertheless, you can ask for a donor bp nerf too !
That could solve the problem too but that's not were the problem lies.
We don't have any problem in the guild with the tank loosing aggro over donor bp rogue, monk, zerk whatever (only SK can keep aggro sometimes). Some tanks have donor bp and some like me don't and still, the only problem we may have is if the mob is rooted and tank is a bit too far compared to others, that's it.
Reason why you take over aggro, it seems, is because the donor bp allows you to do massive huge destructive dps. You can't complain lol
Taking aggro over someone else is the risk you gotta take for using the bp.What is your tank using as clickies / weapons / anger focus / disc ? You should look into that direction, this is a problem of aggro management, on warrior's side, or on both you / him's sides.
Nevertheless, you can ask for a donor bp nerf too !
That could solve the problem too but that's not were the problem lies.
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Just looked at your roster. You got 2 warrior with donor bp so I don't understand.
Are they using Fevarn/Burger clicky every 2s or 3s ? Spamming Defender's Vengeance / Enraged Scowl whenever it's up ? Doing that with my warrior enables me to keep aggro, unless rooted mob as I said. Your warrior should be able to do the very same. I have more or less the same augments as them on weapons (one needs Vistrinda's weapon to have another anger proc).
If they do and still got problem then all I can tell you is that you need to manage better you aggro (wait longer before engaging, hold backstab sometimes or bp clicky) untill they find a way to use all their skills / clickes to their maximum. Or they need to switch their Kiss of Life augments for Aggro augments (brutal blade I think ?) untill they get better, then they can switch back for KoL augments (since they are very useful for us too).
Are they using Fevarn/Burger clicky every 2s or 3s ? Spamming Defender's Vengeance / Enraged Scowl whenever it's up ? Doing that with my warrior enables me to keep aggro, unless rooted mob as I said. Your warrior should be able to do the very same. I have more or less the same augments as them on weapons (one needs Vistrinda's weapon to have another anger proc).
If they do and still got problem then all I can tell you is that you need to manage better you aggro (wait longer before engaging, hold backstab sometimes or bp clicky) untill they find a way to use all their skills / clickes to their maximum. Or they need to switch their Kiss of Life augments for Aggro augments (brutal blade I think ?) untill they get better, then they can switch back for KoL augments (since they are very useful for us too).
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Been using the Rogue donor BP for a while now. Yes, it's nice doing good damage, but you'll have to time the click to when you think the tank can handle the massive aggro generated.
I usually wait at least a minute on my tank, and he's as well geared as my rogue. Aggro has always been a problem for the rogue, but the risk has to be worth the reward.
In this case, I think it is.
I usually wait at least a minute on my tank, and he's as well geared as my rogue. Aggro has always been a problem for the rogue, but the risk has to be worth the reward.
In this case, I think it is.
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Chiron is not a boxed guild. We limit each player to 3 characters per raid. We may be utilizing our characters more so than a scripted boxed guild. Our tanks are top notch. They each know game mechanics and use Shield of the Burgerz or the nadox equivalent as often as possible.
Either you guys aren't as well buffed as my rogue or you're gear is not equal. I can wait till a boss is at 40% health before I attack, click my BP and start backstabbing and I can have it's attention within 3 or 4 backstabs. With a 1 minute duration combat ability from the donor BP, I'm capable of 12+ backstabs before it runs out. Why have a buff good for 12 backstabs when you can't use more than 2 before aquiring attention? You guys are missing a portion of the conversation if you don't see a problem with that.
My point was this. The wizard is much like the rogue. It's always had to watch it's damage in LIVE. This isn't live. These are donor BPs designed for T9. Taking a statement from the Wizard's BP "Decrease all Hate generated by all spells to 1". I don't think that my request is so incredulous as you seem to think.
If you're not having a problem with agro, could you describe your typical combat scenario? What percentage do you start attacking the target and how many backstabs do you accomplish in what amount of time without getting agro? How many backstabs do you accomplish within the 1 minute window of the BPs combat effect? Where are your rogues on your raid's DPS list?
Here are some magelo's to look at of other rogues with Rogue Donor BP. Compare Rungar's base attack and dagger's max base damage pre-multiplier with any of these. Base damage on his dagger is 179 (159+ 5 magic + 5 fire + 10 Poison) assuming no resist. As rogues, you should know the effect of a few points of dagger damage pre-multiplier has on a backstab.
Norks and Aldred, for example, each have the Left Eye of the Mist Dragon on their offhand weapons. That's 25 damage that could be placed on the mainhand. HoH mobs require extraplanar damage, but given that backstab damage is a vast majority of the rogues total DPS, it's higher overall damage to place both on the mainhand weapon. Make that change and you'll see what I call T9 damage.
Rungar (magelo profile)
Aegos (magelo profile)
Norks (magelo profile)
Aldred (magelo profile)
Either you guys aren't as well buffed as my rogue or you're gear is not equal. I can wait till a boss is at 40% health before I attack, click my BP and start backstabbing and I can have it's attention within 3 or 4 backstabs. With a 1 minute duration combat ability from the donor BP, I'm capable of 12+ backstabs before it runs out. Why have a buff good for 12 backstabs when you can't use more than 2 before aquiring attention? You guys are missing a portion of the conversation if you don't see a problem with that.
My point was this. The wizard is much like the rogue. It's always had to watch it's damage in LIVE. This isn't live. These are donor BPs designed for T9. Taking a statement from the Wizard's BP "Decrease all Hate generated by all spells to 1". I don't think that my request is so incredulous as you seem to think.
If you're not having a problem with agro, could you describe your typical combat scenario? What percentage do you start attacking the target and how many backstabs do you accomplish in what amount of time without getting agro? How many backstabs do you accomplish within the 1 minute window of the BPs combat effect? Where are your rogues on your raid's DPS list?
Here are some magelo's to look at of other rogues with Rogue Donor BP. Compare Rungar's base attack and dagger's max base damage pre-multiplier with any of these. Base damage on his dagger is 179 (159+ 5 magic + 5 fire + 10 Poison) assuming no resist. As rogues, you should know the effect of a few points of dagger damage pre-multiplier has on a backstab.
Norks and Aldred, for example, each have the Left Eye of the Mist Dragon on their offhand weapons. That's 25 damage that could be placed on the mainhand. HoH mobs require extraplanar damage, but given that backstab damage is a vast majority of the rogues total DPS, it's higher overall damage to place both on the mainhand weapon. Make that change and you'll see what I call T9 damage.
Rungar (magelo profile)
Aegos (magelo profile)
Norks (magelo profile)
Aldred (magelo profile)
Re: Rogue Donor BP
Well, I gave you some advices and your post is pretty aggressive to me so I will stop answering to it after that. Don't want it to turn into a pointless drama of "I got the biggest". That wasn't the point of my answer to your post, which was AGAIN, helpful.
I never said that you guys didn't know your job, I just said that I don't think that the problem of your aggro is due to the way Donor BP have been built by Vaion and other gms. Maybe it's what you or others do around it that make them not work as "safely" as it should.
Here melees don't need to wait Warrior to build a high aggro to start attacking. They attack right at start (like 20s to move their toons?). They activate bp (I guess), when mob is fully debuffed (chanter/druid/shaman) with Donor bp (druid/shaman) on, which is quickly after the start so they can do the best dps.
It's just very strange that with only my donor weapon on my warrior, I can hold aggro (95% of the time) over all other donor melees and donor wiz on combat and yours don't. Either they really don't know how to DPS, or mobs hate my ogre's smell so they stick to me, or maybe something is missing in the way you fight.
I'm using every single aggro items / disc I got whener it's ready and I got 0 problems.
And no, I don't think it has to do with buffs, since we are using RK3 and I am not sure you are.
End of story for me. Good luck
I never said that you guys didn't know your job, I just said that I don't think that the problem of your aggro is due to the way Donor BP have been built by Vaion and other gms. Maybe it's what you or others do around it that make them not work as "safely" as it should.
Here melees don't need to wait Warrior to build a high aggro to start attacking. They attack right at start (like 20s to move their toons?). They activate bp (I guess), when mob is fully debuffed (chanter/druid/shaman) with Donor bp (druid/shaman) on, which is quickly after the start so they can do the best dps.
It's just very strange that with only my donor weapon on my warrior, I can hold aggro (95% of the time) over all other donor melees and donor wiz on combat and yours don't. Either they really don't know how to DPS, or mobs hate my ogre's smell so they stick to me, or maybe something is missing in the way you fight.
I'm using every single aggro items / disc I got whener it's ready and I got 0 problems.
And no, I don't think it has to do with buffs, since we are using RK3 and I am not sure you are.
End of story for me. Good luck
Re: Rogue Donor BP
In EQ it used to be extra aggro generated by backstabs
I'm not sure, but it might be equals to the maximum possible damage you can do with a backstab, and even if you miss it.
Dunno how it's handled here, we need to pray the Gods for a sign.
I'm not sure, but it might be equals to the maximum possible damage you can do with a backstab, and even if you miss it.
Dunno how it's handled here, we need to pray the Gods for a sign.
Re: Rogue Donor BP
All about this gear and buff comparison, it doesn't really go anywhere.
The Rogue Donor BP does fantastic damage, similar to a lot of the other classes. Unfortunately, some people seem to suffer from high aggro issues due to this damage. I had this problem before I purchased the Tank donor aug and donor BP on Mott.
I've personally have never had a problem with aggro recently on Aegos. I either just set him in autoattack mode or I'll turn on MQ2Melee until I'm ready to Donor BP disc. Even after an entire minute of burst I've very rarely gotten aggro.
Out of the 4 Magelo's posted above Aegos' base dmg and backstab is the highest.
However, I would like to see a revamp on the Rogue Evade ability (hiding during combat). Maybe make it percentage based to make it easier to drop aggro. Upcoming class skill/ability, maybe!?!
/shrug
The Rogue Donor BP does fantastic damage, similar to a lot of the other classes. Unfortunately, some people seem to suffer from high aggro issues due to this damage. I had this problem before I purchased the Tank donor aug and donor BP on Mott.
I've personally have never had a problem with aggro recently on Aegos. I either just set him in autoattack mode or I'll turn on MQ2Melee until I'm ready to Donor BP disc. Even after an entire minute of burst I've very rarely gotten aggro.
Out of the 4 Magelo's posted above Aegos' base dmg and backstab is the highest.
However, I would like to see a revamp on the Rogue Evade ability (hiding during combat). Maybe make it percentage based to make it easier to drop aggro. Upcoming class skill/ability, maybe!?!
/shrug
Re: Rogue Donor BP
I didn't mean to sound snarky. I avoided posting my backstab numbers to keep it from looking like a "look at me!" post, but since I failed, we'll use numbers to explain the problem that I'm seeing.
We know the hate generated by the Shield of Burgerz. It's 6000 hate according to Allaclone.
Therefore, I set up a test. It has it's faults, but it illustrates my point. I tested this on multiple bosses in multiple raid tiers and found the hate generation to damage ratio to be similar across most zones.
I asked Kallisto to pull a raid mob with her Shield of the Burgerz and put her back to the mob, with only her donor shield to save her. Only hate she generated to the mob was 6k hate via the shield, or close to it.
Then, I moved behind the mob with the worst dagger in my bank. Point was, I wanted to get the least amount of backstab damage necessary to turn the mob which she had generated 6k hate upon. Granted, there are other variables that go into mob hate, but this is enough to show my point imo.
What I found was that roughly 40k backstab damage was near equivalent to 6k hate.
Using this info, I calculate a theoretical max backstab damage's hate generation. We'll keep it in thousands to keep it simple. 3000k damage would be roughly equivalent to 450k hate. If the tank used only Shield of the Burgurz to gain hate, it would take 75 clicks, each taking 2 seconds to cast which means it would take 2.5 minutes to counter 1 backstab.
Because Rungar can backstab for 3.5 million maximum damage, he can potentially generate a theoretical maximum of 90k hate per second. If he sits out half the fight, his hate generation is half, so 45k hate per second. If he sits out 3/4 the fight, his hate generation is 22.5k hate per second. Most any tank will have a problem outputting even 22.5k hate per second.
Now on average with raid buffs, Rungar only does about half his theoretical maximum hate. That means he can generate about 45k hate per second. So by purchasing this donor BP, Rungar needs to sit out for 3/4 of the fight so that the tanks only need to generate 11k hate per second. The Shield of the Burgerz is 6k hate per 2 seconds, so 3k hate per second. Where will they get the other 8k hate? Hopefully from procs off the donor aug which are 1k hate each unmodified.
You may say "This is what taunt is for!" Taunt gives a tank 1 point of hate over the leading hate generator. Taunt renews every 6 seconds there abouts, backstab every 5 seconds. Given a scenario with 100% successful taunts, the rogue and warrior would continuously swap aggression back and forth until the rogue dies.
Like I said in the beginning. I believe that my rogue's gear and buff combination puts him in a different category than your rogues because I do not see how your tanks are not having issues generating enough threat to satisfy someone that actually plays the rogue as a main or secondary character. I meant no slight in saying so, I just analyzed the numbers and they're not adding up.
This simple analysis omits player damage and several other factors. I just meant this to illustrate the point I was trying to make.
Secondly, I'll say it again... the spell casting dps class equivalent to a rogue is a wizard and their BP factors in the hate mitigation while the rogues does not.
-Warbeat
aka Rungar
We know the hate generated by the Shield of Burgerz. It's 6000 hate according to Allaclone.
Therefore, I set up a test. It has it's faults, but it illustrates my point. I tested this on multiple bosses in multiple raid tiers and found the hate generation to damage ratio to be similar across most zones.
I asked Kallisto to pull a raid mob with her Shield of the Burgerz and put her back to the mob, with only her donor shield to save her. Only hate she generated to the mob was 6k hate via the shield, or close to it.
Then, I moved behind the mob with the worst dagger in my bank. Point was, I wanted to get the least amount of backstab damage necessary to turn the mob which she had generated 6k hate upon. Granted, there are other variables that go into mob hate, but this is enough to show my point imo.
What I found was that roughly 40k backstab damage was near equivalent to 6k hate.
Using this info, I calculate a theoretical max backstab damage's hate generation. We'll keep it in thousands to keep it simple. 3000k damage would be roughly equivalent to 450k hate. If the tank used only Shield of the Burgurz to gain hate, it would take 75 clicks, each taking 2 seconds to cast which means it would take 2.5 minutes to counter 1 backstab.
Because Rungar can backstab for 3.5 million maximum damage, he can potentially generate a theoretical maximum of 90k hate per second. If he sits out half the fight, his hate generation is half, so 45k hate per second. If he sits out 3/4 the fight, his hate generation is 22.5k hate per second. Most any tank will have a problem outputting even 22.5k hate per second.
Now on average with raid buffs, Rungar only does about half his theoretical maximum hate. That means he can generate about 45k hate per second. So by purchasing this donor BP, Rungar needs to sit out for 3/4 of the fight so that the tanks only need to generate 11k hate per second. The Shield of the Burgerz is 6k hate per 2 seconds, so 3k hate per second. Where will they get the other 8k hate? Hopefully from procs off the donor aug which are 1k hate each unmodified.
You may say "This is what taunt is for!" Taunt gives a tank 1 point of hate over the leading hate generator. Taunt renews every 6 seconds there abouts, backstab every 5 seconds. Given a scenario with 100% successful taunts, the rogue and warrior would continuously swap aggression back and forth until the rogue dies.
Like I said in the beginning. I believe that my rogue's gear and buff combination puts him in a different category than your rogues because I do not see how your tanks are not having issues generating enough threat to satisfy someone that actually plays the rogue as a main or secondary character. I meant no slight in saying so, I just analyzed the numbers and they're not adding up.
This simple analysis omits player damage and several other factors. I just meant this to illustrate the point I was trying to make.
Secondly, I'll say it again... the spell casting dps class equivalent to a rogue is a wizard and their BP factors in the hate mitigation while the rogues does not.
-Warbeat
aka Rungar
Re: Rogue Donor BP
I love this part lol.Chiron is not a boxed guild. We limit each player to 3 characters per raid. We may be utilizing our characters more so than a scripted boxed guild.
Rogues are borderline overpowered right now, their damage with the donor bp is over the top for sure. Donor BP's have all but trivialized the current content.
You also have not posted any numbers either for your rogue as to why he is pulling aggro. Maybe it's because he is popping quad 1.5m backstabs? lol. Dev's need to take a look at the rogue damage right now it is especially high on T8 mobs, rogue pretty much doubled my monk last time I gave a crap to look at the dps meter. That is without the Donor BP mind you.
Like I said in the beginning. I believe that my rogue's gear and buff combination puts him in a different category than your rogues because I do not see how your tanks are not having issues generating enough threat to satisfy someone that actually plays the rogue as a main or secondary character. I meant no slight in saying so, I just analyzed the numbers and they're not adding up.
Why is your rogue in a different category? I don't get it. I have raided with yaegor just playing his rogue plenty of times. I am not quite understanding this comparison you are still having between people who play more then 3 toons at times is. Are you saying it's is impossible to fathom that someone else can play a rogue at your level or something?
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