Bot Line of Sight- Yay or Nay?

[striat]

Sounds like it's broken more than it's fixed and the risk/reward of the change has lost scope, to me.

This definitely is not true. It has fixed exactly what it was intended to. All we did was revert to eqemu stock code for this aspect. This would be a great place if we could change people's mindset to not cheat and look for loopholes. However, that just is not going to happen. Right now, it's serving its purpose and it will be reviewed further as mentioned above.

[Killeverything]

I was to start by say think you for all the hard work done for this server....


I was at the Frenzied in Lguk and I could see the mob, (I was standing at the door way) and sent my pal bot in and she went in about 5 steps and then stopped, so i take that as she was in Los and then lost it....that is where I see the problem with this los....the bot will be attack mod and if you pull agro off it and the mob move out of it's los then it go back and sit down and forget that there is a mob rapping you. so you have to hope that the next few clicks take and the bot pulls the mob off

and it seem that all the bot want to do is heal, it spend most of the time eather sitting or trying to heal everyone

Just my 2cp worth

[Rocums]

Ouch, dunno how to deal with PoAir mobs in the floor now...

[Ydiss]

Sounds like it's broken more than it's fixed and the risk/reward of the change has lost scope, to me.

This definitely is not true. It has fixed exactly what it was intended to. All we did was revert to eqemu stock code for this aspect. This would be a great place if we could change people's mindset to not cheat and look for loopholes. However, that just is not going to happen. Right now, it's serving its purpose and it will be reviewed further as mentioned above.

A code reversal is still a change and I didn't actually claim it hasn't fixed what it was intending to fix (it's clearly done that ). I'm expressing my opinion and providing a suggestion on how it could perhaps have been fixed more elegantly, with a lower impact on the players (particularly those who don't even use the exploit).

Reverting code, in my opinion, should be done only when the reason is critical (game breaking, in this case). The custom change that has now been reverted was originally implemented for a reason, wasn't it? Effectively, by reverting it, that reason has now been forgotten, or it has been considered not worth the risk of the exploit that it allowed. This is assuming that the custom code was not introduced to allow pulling mobs through the whole zone out of line of sight, of course. I'm assuming it was introduced for some benefit and if this is the case the removal of that code has negated that benefit, which is probably why you're seeing these complaints and posts of feedback about the bot behaviour.

You're reviewing the code in response to the complaints, which is fine. I'm only questioning whether the issues created by reverting should be the things now being reviewed when it could, perhaps, have simply been the actions required to exploit that should be reviewed instead.

As I know nothing of the code, I can't comment further than that, of course. I only felt that it would have been a more elegant solution, one that has the lowest impact on the general population, to attempt to restrict LOS only on specific actions that exploited it, rather than reverting the entire custom code nugget.

Just my thoughts and suggestions. If what I'm suggesting is impossible or impractical and you're sure the benefit of avoiding the exploit is greater than the risk of altering the requirements of players who use bots (exploits or not), then that's that.

Thanks for your response, it's appreciated.

[Ydiss]

I was to start by say think you for all the hard work done for this server....


I was at the Frenzied in Lguk and I could see the mob, (I was standing at the door way) and sent my pal bot in and she went in about 5 steps and then stopped, so i take that as she was in Los and then lost it....that is where I see the problem with this los....the bot will be attack mod and if you pull agro off it and the mob move out of it's los then it go back and sit down and forget that there is a mob rapping you. so you have to hope that the next few clicks take and the bot pulls the mob off

and it seem that all the bot want to do is heal, it spend most of the time eather sitting or trying to heal everyone

Just my 2cp worth

A quick question, what command exactly did you use to make the bot attack? I found on test that if you use a macro to summon, guard and then attack the mob (as per the bot guide) this is now broken in the latest revision and has less than desirable effects.

I had to tweak the macro to make it work, adding in a /pause command to ensure the bot received the commands in order.

[striat]

Reverting code, in my opinion, should be done only when the reason is critical (game breaking, in this case). The custom change that has now been reverted was originally implemented for a reason, wasn't it? Effectively, by reverting it, that reason has now been forgotten, or it has been considered not worth the risk of the exploit that it allowed.

and

As I know nothing of the code, I can't comment further than that, of course. I only felt that it would have been a more elegant solution, one that has the lowest impact on the general population, to attempt to restrict LOS only on specific actions that exploited it, rather than reverting the entire custom code nugget.

The use of exploits was harming the server to a greater extent than the benefit created by our initial the removal of the LoS check. This was seen as an emergency response. Apparently, some of the old problems still exist, which is why I will review the bot code soon.

There are also numerous other aspects related to bots not having a LoS. One example is bots attacking through walls.

Also, we're talking about a one line adjustment in the code. It was not as though it was given exceptional thought when I removed it to begin with. So, you're probably right in that a more elegant solution is possible. However, the limiting factor for me up until now has been time. And time just was not available in the past.

Finally, do understand two things. First, when I say that I will review something, it normally means that I'll look into a better, permanent solution. Normally, I do not make temp fixes except in emergencies like this. Second, I do appreciate your feedback. Normally, it is really helpful and can sometimes help me (or us) choose the best direction. In this case, I kind of already had an idea of what I wanted to do. I just am trying to work it into the schedule.

Thanks for your feedback.

-Striat

[Mortbise]

There are also numerous other aspects related to bots not having a LoS. One example is bots attacking through walls.

I do hope you don't plan to prevent bots from attacking through walls (could be the case already though), since mobs certainly aren't hindered by this. Rocums mentionned PoAir, and I imagine it's like in several places in Ssra where mobs sink into the ground, happily whacking at you anyway.

I'll ask again : Striat, how much of a hassle would it be to have a range for bots to attack, like pets ?

[Lillu]

I do hope you don't plan to prevent bots from attacking through walls (could be the case already though), since mobs certainly aren't hindered by this. Rocums mentionned PoAir, and I imagine it's like in several places in Ssra where mobs sink into the ground, happily whacking at you anyway.

We can look into pathing and try to fix mobs getting underworld, but the solution is certainly not to let BoTs attack through walls.

[Rocums]

A lot of mobs in PoAir aggro through walls and go underworld. I know it happens to all the flying/floating ones if they happen to go through a wall, but I don't know if it is exclusive to them. Temple Guardians, Phoenixes and other such mobs have been a problem in the past where the only way to kill them is to get a bunch of DPS bots on it and spam heal them.

[Mortbise]

Seems to happen, well be likely to happen, simply where there's several layers to the ground. Quick exemple : PoV golem area. They can go under the hills easily and there's a whole plain layer that you see in the holes, that looks like solid water (hope it's clear enough). Ssra, same, pull a mob in a corridor, if it goes too much in the wall, chance is it'll sink (doesn't occur in the basement, since it's the bottom of the zone).

Bots attacking through walls/ground certainly isn't a solution, it's completely true. But it's all we have beside gating out.

Else, pathing ? Is there any pathing at all on EQEmu ?