Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

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Nerva
Posts: 238

Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#1 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:23 pm

Fair Warning - long and detailed post.

I'm noticing that Necromancer DoTs, once you start hitting 70+ group content and raid-tier content, are really, really suffering. It's not really due to a lack of damage, though. It's due to their resistance mod. Necros, quite simply, can't land most of their DoTs (and indeed, most of their debuffs) against high-level foes.

This is most noticeable with debuffs and magic-based DoTs. A prime example would be Ancient: Curse of Mori and its predecessor, Dark Nightmare. Notice the resistance mods on these spells: -75 for Curse of Mori, and -30 for Dark Nightmare. Once you hit T4/T5, these spells can almost never land reliably unless you can debuff the resistance of enemies in some way. These are the best magic-damage DoTs available prior to T8 and Curse of Undeath.

Well, you might be thinking, "don't you have a spell for that?" And yeah, Necros do - the Scent line, such as Scent of Midnight. The problem here is no Scent-line spell debuffs magic resistance, and oftentimes raid-bosses are flat-out immune to it. I know I couldn't get it to land at all against Xegony. Scent of Midnight is particularly bad because unlike the previous spell in the series, it doesn't debuff Fire resistance.

As you likely know, DoTs are a big, if not the biggest, part of Necromancer DPS, and the class's mana is such that they really only have enough to fully DoT maybe one or two mobs per fight and keep them that way without going OOM. Necromancers simply can't afford to keep constantly recasting their spells in hopes that one finally sticks. Necros need their DoTs to be like wizard DDs - first time, every time, no exceptions.

Necromancers already get snubbed for DPS work due to the fact that their spells work slowly; a wizard can barf up (without any modifications) 12.5k damage instantly on 7 seconds of notice with a single spell, whereas Necros are stuck waiting 24-30 seconds for one of our spells to do the same. Wizards also have an easier time getting damage focuses and can modify their spells with Mana Flare, whereas damage focuses for long-term deterimental spells, particularly poison and disease spells, are pretty much unheard-of on gear that isn't class-specific to Necromancers. The only way that Necros deal comparable DPS is to stack all of our DoTs onto a target at once (and personally I don't mind that; Necros are Necros, that's the way it should be), but they can't do that if they can't land them reliably.

Here's a couple suggestions for solutions. Any one of the following would likely resolve the problem:
  • Provide class-specific alternatives for T3 through T7 generic caster gear that provides focuses tuned towards Necromancers, including coveted focuses like "reduces the chance of targets resisting long term detrimental spells" and "increases the damage of long-term detrimental spells"
  • Re-itemize T3 through T7 generic caster gear to include Necromancer-friendly focuses, as pointed out above.
  • Remove any restrictions/immunities that might prevent Scent-series spells from landing on raid-tier enemies, expand the Scent line to debuff all four major Necro resistances (Magic, Fire, Poison, Disease), and give Necromancers a raid-tier-appropriate addition to the Scent line. Personally speaking, I don't mind making Scent a part of my rotation, so long as I know it's gonna land and I'm not wasting time and mana trying to slap it on something.
Characters
Malarath - Lv70 Froglok Necromancer, 700+ AAs, progress T7-2
Valtar - Lv70 Gold Drakkin Wizard, 300+ AAs, progress T7-1
Szakadar -Lv70 Iksar Monk, 100+ AAs, progress T5

Reid
Posts: 103

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#2 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:02 pm

So, correct me if i'm wrong, but your main concern is that you cannot land Scent and/or your magic based spells in a RAID environment and you want a spell change so that you can be completely self sufficient. ... ...

You don't raid with Mages, Enchanters, Shamans, Bards, or a melee with a malo beat stick or what? :lol:

I've never heard of another necromancer complaining that their current complement wasn't more than enough. The fire based spells are on a lure (-300 or -100 respectively) modifier. Casting scent will ensure that your poison based dot will land, and scent is on a -200 modifier. Magic dots have always had a bad resist modifier because they are your TERTIARY dot line. I don't know of anyone who would even attempt to cast it outside of a raid, who wouldn't just use a nuke clicky instead. Since, you know, it does comparable damage AND procs mana flare.

Your post was well put together, and I appreciate the time you put into it. But maybe I don't understand the problem because I don't play a necromancer here.
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Nerva
Posts: 238

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#3 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:35 pm

Well, here's the thing. Basically the entirety of my DPS is DoT-based. I have a resistance debuff (Scent) that would help my DoTs land reliably, except that it doesn't seem to work in a raid environment: I keep getting "your spell did not take hold" when I cast it. And few other people seem want to toss out resistance debuffs, and fewer still have resistance debuffs that affect poison/disease. I would use a resistance-debuff stick, if I could find one, but I haven't yet.

I just want my DoTs to land reliably so I can actually be useful to my raid. I don't think that's too much to ask, is it?
Characters
Malarath - Lv70 Froglok Necromancer, 700+ AAs, progress T7-2
Valtar - Lv70 Gold Drakkin Wizard, 300+ AAs, progress T7-1
Szakadar -Lv70 Iksar Monk, 100+ AAs, progress T5

Reid
Posts: 103

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#4 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:52 pm

If it says "your spell did not take hold," then something is blocking it from landing. Your highest version of Scent should not have that problem, as it stacks with Malo / Tash / Bard debuffs. If you are casting the lower level version of Scent, Malo will override it. Scent stacking has never been a problem for our raids, which has a Nec / Shm / Enc almost 100% of the time.

As far as dots landing, it is the eternal trade off. You will do much more damage landing a dot and then nuking in a raid environment, but if it's really that much of an issue for you (you average 3 or more resists) then you need the other debuffers to be on their game, or you should just be nuking while the other two dots are tic'ing.
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Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#5 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:23 pm

The only issue I have with necro is the lack of improved PR or DR based dots. I love the fire/magic so I just deal with it.
Coming up in raid tier I noticed that (this is some time back) the best focuses were not even necro useable.
Its still a bomb class. I use to use the necro when I was farming POI before the 25 limit.
Mass pull, pop warrior rampage to hope I hold some agro, bard 2.0 then fenny bp and try to fd before I got eaten. Good times.

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Nerva
Posts: 238

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#6 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:32 pm

Well, I'm definitely using Scent of Midnight, which is the strongest Scent-line debuff available to me. If there's stronger, I don't know what it is, but I'd sure as heck like to find it.

I always nuke while my DoTs tick, if nothing else than to keep my health up; between Dark Possession and whatever AoEs or DoTs the bosses have, lifetapping is what keeps me alive and kickin'.

Most of the resistance problems come from my Magic and Disease/Poison DoTs. Magic, as mentioned, doesn't benefit from Scent (need a malo stick or someone to debuff magic resistance), and although Poison & Disease do, Chaos Venom has a low resist mod and I don't yet have Death Stalker, so I usually go without Disease.

There's a lot of other debuffs and spells that suffer due to low resist mods, too. Call for Blood and Touch of Saryn III, for instance, both of which have a zero for resist mod, making them kinda difficult to use effectively.

I'm sure this problem will get orders-of-magnitude better once I have T8 spells, since Curse of Undeath and Desolate Pyre have stronger resist mods, as does Death Stalker (which would finally bring my Disease DoTs back into play). Still, CoD and DP are a long way off, and I'd like to be able to make myself useful to my guild even without top-tier spells, y'know?
Characters
Malarath - Lv70 Froglok Necromancer, 700+ AAs, progress T7-2
Valtar - Lv70 Gold Drakkin Wizard, 300+ AAs, progress T7-1
Szakadar -Lv70 Iksar Monk, 100+ AAs, progress T5

Reid
Posts: 103

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#7 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:52 pm

Yeah, I gotcha. From talking with our resident necro, he doesn't even use the disease dot. It might be a personal play preference, or it may be because the poison one lasts a tic longer and adds counters. Who knows.

As for the t8 spells being far off, maybe you need to switch priorities and squeeze a bit of farming in? Normal ldons will net you about 2-3k a run in gems, and people always need ldon points. If you can get farm time in on some air-infused waters there are buyers for that, or you could make the arrowheads yourself for a small profit (assuming you have BS aa's). there are other options for money as well. Getting 20-40k together for a spell shouldn't take too long for the valuable upgrade it would bring, regardless of gear level.
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Nerva
Posts: 238

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#8 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:28 pm

You've got a good point that the T8 spells are tradeable and I could buy them off someone. I've actually been earning money for that and other reasons, but I have a couple other purchases (most notably a Token of Kerafyrm) that kinda take priority over buying spells. Nobody likes running Ssra or killing the dragons for Sleeper access, and I can't get my VP key quest or Epic 2.0 without access to ToV and Sleeper.

Still, plenty of time to earn cash, and I can possibly earn money while doing Headhunter in Seb or Guk or Karnor's, or go farming Fungus Grove/PoStorms for waters. The T8/LDoN spells would help a lot, but it's kinda annoying to be basically required to have them before you can really be useful in a raid environment. I'm also not really well-geared enough to LDON easily - remember, I'm a Necro. Sure we have a pet and a bot (and I use a pally for the latter), but we can't just steamroll an LDoN willy-nilly.

Of course, this could all just be a symptom of trying to progress too fast to catch up with a guild that's way ahead of me. *sighs* Makes me wish I hadn't lost my old wizard.
Characters
Malarath - Lv70 Froglok Necromancer, 700+ AAs, progress T7-2
Valtar - Lv70 Gold Drakkin Wizard, 300+ AAs, progress T7-1
Szakadar -Lv70 Iksar Monk, 100+ AAs, progress T5

Kron
Posts: 227

Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#9 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:38 am

manaflare should take with dots imo
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Re: Necromancer: Spell resistance vs. High-End Mobs

Post#10 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:55 pm

Kron: Heck it might fire off from dots but since filters are funky with dots I have one window for chat and one window for everything else and its minimized so I dont even see anything.

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