N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Explanations please - no flames
Nagash
Posts: 50

N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#1 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:27 pm

Hi folks,

I haven't been able to log for a couple of weeks and won't be able for another 1.5 due to some exam and holidays (lucky me) so I haven't tested the recent changes to the necro and won't comment on the DPS of the class. What I wanted to address is the recent change done to the mechanics.

In order to up necro's DPS, the damage per tick of some dots have been greatly increased and the number of ticks decreased to 2. I have to say I really hate the idea of this change even without having tried it. The reason is very simple: I am a necro. I want my enemies to suffer from every form of disease, poison and curse imaginable before they die. Therefore I want to be able to put a lot of dots on my target, A LOT! I won't be able to do that now: with such a change, even if the "immediate" DPS (I call immediate the DPS on short fights) will go up tremendously all I will do is cast one dot, cast another one and I'll be back to having to refresh the first one. In a nutshell, I'll become a 2 button class. That becomes very close, way too close to my taste to being a magician with a slightly less powerfull pet, a different color for my spells (they will be green and back instead of red) and FD, but a magician nonetheless.

What is important to note is that these fights don't matter much: we talk about trash mob here. Give me a new poison DD of about 3k-3k5 and I'll be a happy bunny.

As much as I'm appreciate seeing the necro being looked into (thumbs up and contagious hug to all our developpers) I think the changes that need to be done are the oposite to what has been made: increase the duration of our DoTs so that we can stack a lot on the target (I think boss target here). I don't mind (actually I genuinely love the idea) having to stack 10 or more DoTs to have a super DPS. I don't care if I have to remem some during the fight, that's what being a necro is about for me: agility, not rigidity. With the recent changes, I won't be able to do that.

I can only speak for what I've seen or know of which is Ssra that I've done quite a bit and some bosses that my kinnies have started attacking in ToV. What I know is that these fights last a good 5 minutes (not sure how long they will be later in T3+) and I don't want to spend 5 minutes alternating 2 or 3 buttons. To me this is boring and completely anti necro-like.

To summarise, I think these changes close the gap dangerously with another class. Let's not try to make them too much alike, please let keep and praise their diversity. They both have the same role to play (DPS) but in a very different way.

I will let you, fellow wraith, add your own comments and experience to this thread.

Kind regards,

Nagash

Edit: Dammit, I've managed to say it all in less than a 3 pages essay!
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Valsavis
Posts: 123

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#2 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:13 pm

I still haven't gotten to parse the new spells yet so I don't have any hard numbers yet but I agree with alot of your points. I dunno if I really wanna have 10 different DoTs to try to keep track of during a fight, but the shortened durations DO make casting anything other than those 2 DoTs kind of tough.( some of the DoTs still have longer durations, believe only Dread Pyre and Ancient Curse where shortened) If kept in their current state I don't think it would be a bad idea to add a tick or two back on. (mabye keep dread pyre at it's current duration and up ancient a tick or two to help space out the casts better) Of all our DoTs I felt the most attention needed to be paid to our curse resists( esp for an ancient spell the resist rate was terrible, little better now but still get a fair number of resists, even on trash mobs) and maybe our duration tap(which is laughable this could be boosted bigtime either alot higher rate/mana cost or revamp it totally and maybe make it a group duration heal at an even higher mana cost).

Another point on shortened DoTs is if you have a duration focus for affliction it just lost alot of it's alure, hehe. I know you can't have everything.... /grin (though we necro's come darn close hehe) Honestly even with the current revamp to DoTs we're not gonna touch a wiz in dps(nor should we) but we make up for it in alot of other ways that though may not be apparent in the servers current raid structures, could certainly come to the fray as new encounters are developed and new stratagies for these encounters arise.( i still like the idea that if you wanna make other classes needed in raiding, make encounters where they're used... the more all out burn type encounters you have the more hard core dps peeps want, make encounters more about crowd control or a controled dps due to event scripting and you'll see more and more of the obscure classes~chanties for instance~ come into play)

Nagash
Posts: 50

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#3 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:42 pm

Agreed, we shouldn't touch a wizard when it comes to burst DPS (no one should) but when it comes to sustained DPS, we should bury them (pun intended). Not sure where we stand today though, as I said, I wasn't on about DPS but mechanics :)

Nagash
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Tyler
Posts: 4365

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#4 » Fri May 14, 2010 8:01 pm

The idea is to supply you Necros with something more usable to stick to fast dying mobs than just taps.

We will introduce 3 lines for Sk/Necros. 3 tic dots, 6 tic dots and 12 tic dots. The longer the dot, the more efficient they are going to be. And the more hate you can channel through your enemies ;)

Does this sound ok to you guys?
Item Change -> Reload needed
Spell Change -> Reload AND new Spellfile needed

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Tyler
Posts: 4365

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#5 » Fri May 14, 2010 8:02 pm

Also DPS parses for necros are very needed and welcomed.
Item Change -> Reload needed
Spell Change -> Reload AND new Spellfile needed

Valsavis
Posts: 123

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#6 » Fri May 14, 2010 8:09 pm

I look forward to testin em out :)

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Lillu
Posts: 11301
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Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#7 » Fri May 14, 2010 10:07 pm

on THF, by the time you cast 3 dots, the mob is usually dead..

Mist
Posts: 6

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#8 » Mon May 17, 2010 9:48 pm

I don't want to spend 5 minutes alternating 2 or 3 buttons. To me this is boring and completely anti necro-like.


I'll respond under the assumption that you are actually seriously arguing that a Necromancer should be juggling ten dots on a mob. If it was just a joke, then it went over my head.

Let's first consider what the currently most popular classes are.

Warriors - Even if they aren't tanking, they DPS with only 2 or 3 buttons.
Monks - Serious DPS, 2 or 3 buttons.
Rogues - Serious DPS, 2 or 3 buttons.
Rangers - Maybe one button.

It is unquestionable that the above four classes are the most popular classes.
Despite the fact that their damage dealing roles all only involve hitting 2 or 3 buttons, I don't think that anyone would seriously argue that they all feel the same. Also, despite the fact that they only involve a very minimal amount of interaction, people evidently find them fun.

You write:

In a nutshell, I'll become a 2 button class. That becomes very close, way too close to my taste to being a magician with a slightly less powerfull pet, a different color for my spells (they will be green and back instead of red) and FD, but a magician nonetheless.


This is a fairly silly complaint. Arguing, for example, that a Monk just feels like a Rogue with a differently named and slightly less powerful Backstab, would be nonsense. The classes are extremely different, despite the fact that in order to play either of them in a damage dealing capacity may feel similar.

In the same manner, you are drastically oversimplifying the differences between Necromancers and Magicians. I mean, first of all, your spells are still damage over time spells, not direct damage spells. Regardless of the duration, this is a key difference.

Let's compare the following two (non-existent) spells to see why:

Magician Burst of Flame - 100 Direct Damage 1 second cast time.
Necromancer Sicken - 500 Damage per tick, 1 second cast time, 1 tick duration.

Seems obvious that the Necromancer is going to be doing higher damage right? 500 > 100, the spells are just different colors!

So, to figure out which spell does higher damage let's compare their damage dealt over time.

First, the Magician:

Time | Damage
0 0
1 100
2 200
3 300
...
6 600
12 1200

Now, the Necromancer (assuming perfect timing on reapplication of the spell):

Time | Damage
0 0
1 0
2 0
...
6 500
...
11 500
12 1000

If anything, the changes to allow for shorter duration DoTs will raise the skill cap on a Necromancer significantly, for the better or worse. You need to be able to weave not only your two short duration spells but also your two longer duration spells in between.

Without even looking at the actual numbers, lets assume that there are now (after the changes) two short duration dots and two long duration dots. This is unbelievably great news from the skilled Necromancer's point of view.

Here are two different scenarios to explain why:

First, a trash mob in a dungeon, with an average lifespan of 18 seconds (this is fairly generous).

With only long duration dots in your arsenal, you'll cast one, maybe two, and they'll each tick twice and the mob will be dead. Since the dots are set up for long duration, each tick will be for a negligible amount and you barely contribute. You decide that you want to help so you switch to just using your nuke. Not very Necromancery.

With the two short duration dots in your arsenal, you'll cast them both, they'll each tick twice and the mob will be dead. These dots are geared for this kind of fight and they are working to their maximum potential here. You contribute a great deal of damage and you're filling your class role!

Now, let's look at a raid boss, with a five minute lifespan.

With only the long duration dots in your arsenal, you load the boss up with your four long lasting, 12 tick damage over time spells. This is where they really shine, right? So, after casting all four dots, you wait and watch for thirty seconds, and then re-cast the four spells. Maybe you decide during that waiting period to cast a nuke or two, although you probably don't because that would feel too much like a Magician. Either way, you're spending the majority of the fight looking at a timer and waiting for your spells to wear off. This is neither fun or engaging.

Now with the short duration dots in your arsenal, you cast your two short duration dots. After those are applied, you cast your two long duration dots. Now you wait a tick and you reapply your two short duration dots. The mob still has the same number of dots but rather than just sitting around or being forced into using direct damage spells, the Necromancer is engaged and actively participating in the fight.

I don't mind (actually I genuinely love the idea) having to stack 10 or more DoTs to have a super DPS. I don't care if I have to remem some during the fight, that's what being a necro is about for me: agility, not rigidity. With the recent changes, I won't be able to do that.


tl;dr

The idea from a developer's perspective here is to make casters more approachable and easier to play, not to dramatically complicate their play style in order to fit a misguided notion of what a Necromancer should be.

If the only way to play a Necromancer successfully is by having to track the durations of 10 or more spells at a time, that is neither fun nor approachable. It is just insanity.

I hope you see now how your viewpoint is not only radical but also misguided and that the steps the developer's are taking here are a step in the right direction.

Relnon
Posts: 142

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#9 » Tue May 18, 2010 1:43 am

I can sympathize with liking long duration DoTs. Theres just something fun about stacking a ton of DoTs on a mob. Maybe a better solution to necro dps would be that certain end game trash mobs (maybe specific to one or two zones) have their damage kept the same, but their health and xp value increased ten fold.

That would make necros with long, powerful DoTs useful. I think some trash mobs go down too quickly/easily to a full group anyways.

ChaosSlayer
Posts: 1693

Re: N(ecr)oooooooooooooo!!!

Post#10 » Tue May 18, 2010 2:43 am

the dots (and other spells) rewamp I am working on right now, hopefully will give the necros ability to choose how they want to play (fast dots, long dots, some nukes etc), according to their each own stile ;)
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